In Defense of Starcraft 2's story

[Turalyon]

As an addendum to RussianSpy's questions

How could an overriding directive be so strong to direct the Overmind to kill the Protoss and yet do nothing to stop it from committing suicide? Then it must not be overriding. The why use that word? Sloppy writing? The directive must be around to do its ultimate job, which means it should have a sense of self-preservation too.

[Karass]

Tassadar is trying to convince Zeratul that his hatred of the Overmind is misplaced but uses the words noble and courageous for something that decided to destroy (kill/assimilate/whatever) his entire species? This does not gel with your quote.

I think you need to listen more closely to what Tassadar says: he uses the term "courage" (btw, he doesn't call the Overmind noble) in context of it creating the Queen of Blades and then elaborates that she can free the Zerg from slavery, which will save the universe (I suppose this will be explained deeper in HotS). He doesn't say that the Overmind was harmless, he only admires its act of creating that which will help save creation.

1) How could the choices been his own if he "was formed without free will?

The "but not free will" part was just referring to the fact that there was a directive in the Overmind, not that it can't make its own choices (in fact, it did make a choice to create Queen of Blades, for instance), so no problem there.

2) If someone were to tell me before WOL came out that the Overmind's character hinted even remotely at being suicidal, I would have laughed my ass off. He would have done the same except supposedly set himself up to be killed?

Actually, there's nothing to support the idea of the Overmind setting itself up to be killed, neither Tassadar's words or anything else.

What do you think of the leaked vid now by the way?

I still think it's totally fake. Blizzard putting it down may even further suggest it is fake, since it was being presented as the ending of HotS, which (if it's fake) violates Blizz's copyright. Company's logo may very well be replacated and the voice may not be Metzen's (in fact, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be him even if the cinematic wasn't fake, since neither Raynor nor Mengsk are voiced by Metzen).

A retcon of a retcon? It never ends!!!!!

Funny fact: there was a retcon of a retcon in Shadow of the Xel'Naga. Liberty's Crusade retcons Norad II's fate after Duke's retcon by saying that it self-destructed, but Shadow of the Xel'Naga retcons it back to the game's version by saying that Norad III is an extensively refitted and renamed Norad II.

[RussianSpy27]

http://sclegacy.com/feature/2-encycl...berty-story#IN UTTER DARKNESS

First, Zeratul's discovers of how the Overmind was overjoyed to die:
================================================== ===
Zeratul
The second Overmind tendril. I sense... death... and joy?

Zeratul
The third Overmind tendril. I sense... satisfaction... in a plan set in motion long ago... and... fear of the future?
========================

Then, if you go to talk to people on the ship:
==========================
CANTINA:

Tosh
You look... haunted. You've been seein' into the spirit world, and you learned somethin' you don't like. It's... Kerrigan?

(amused) What've you been seein' this time, man? (sober) Wait...I see it too. Kerrigan?

Raynor
Seems the Overmind made Kerrigan to... free the zerg... from somethin'. Put 'em on a collision course with the protoss.

It's all gone wrong. Everything's... twisted, and there's something out there that's set to destroy us all.

Tosh
Zerg... protoss. These are strong races. How terrible - how powerful - is something that plays with their fates?

BATTLE.NET LOADING SCREEN:

Zeratul learned that the Overmind was enslaved by an outside force and compelled to attack the protoss. In a final act of defiance, the Overmind created the Queen of Blades to free the zerg.
===============================

Doesn't seem like the Overmind was gonna do the same thing anyway to me - the parts clarify Tassadar's meaning behind "overriding purpose" very well.

Good call on the "noble" part though .

[Turalyon]

I think you need to listen more closely to what Tassadar says: he uses the term "courage" (btw, he doesn't call the Overmind noble) in context of it creating the Queen of Blades and then elaborates that she can free the Zerg from slavery, which will save the universe (I suppose this will be explained deeper in HotS). He doesn't say that the Overmind was harmless, he only admires its act of creating that which will help save creation.

My bad. To me, the way Tassadar praises the Overminds actions seemed like all it sins against the Protoss race were forgiven (which seems to be going the same way for Kerrigan). It's jarring to think that he gives praise for the creation of Kerrigan who almost ended up killing what remaining Protoss were left.

This "freeing Zerg" business seems funny as well. Are they going to retcon the nature of the Zerg as being peaceful creatures that fly off into the sunset and peacefully co-exist with other living organisms? As they are now, "free" Zerg would just cause a rampage much like when there was no Overmind to give them a sense of direction.

The "but not free will" part was just referring to the fact that there was a directive in the Overmind, not that it can't make its own choices (in fact, it did make a choice to create Queen of Blades, for instance), so no problem there.

Makes you wonder why they just didn't write it that way then - we wouldn't have all these differences in opinion. Having no free will gives the message that it cannot make choices.

[Louis]

Didn't someone called Asimov write a story or a theory about sentient AI slaves making decisions that go against their programming? I believe it normally involves the AI reasoning their way around their lack of free will to somehow convince themselves that what they're doing is not defiant and not out of bounds. I don't think that such hard science has ever been Blizzards style, but I can accept it as a placeholder theory until we get the official word.

[Karass]

Actually, that loading screen is the only thing to suggest that the Overmind didn't want to attack the Protoss. However, this could be a case of bad wording.

In fact, this loading screen doesn't indicate that the Overmind wasn't going to assimilate the Protoss. It says "the Overmind was enslaved by an outside force" and then that "in a final act of defiance the Overmind created the Queen of Blades", i.e. defiance to the subtle control of an outside force (Dark Voice).

Edit by Gradius: Don't double post, use the button.

[RussianSpy27]

I think we can both agree that the writing was bad. However, the difference between your argument is mine in this case (and in the case of the video) is that I'm taking the most obvious interpretation of what is quoted and you're taking the very unlikely one and trying to show "oh but yours isn't 100% - it could have been a glitch or it could have been A,B,C"

Let me start by repeating that Raynor basically told Tosh that " free the zerg... from somethin' [Dark Voice]. Put 'em on a collision course with the protoss." Do I need to translate hick talk that "Put 'em" means "Which put them Zerg on" :P

Also, you can't take the quote out of context like that. It says compelled to attack the Protoss. Yes, it's one word, but one word can mean everything.

com·pel   
[kuhm-pel] Show IPA
verb, -pelled, -pel·ling.
–verb (used with object)
1.
to force or drive, esp. to a course of action: His disregard of the rules compels us to dismiss him.
2.
to secure or bring about by force.
3.
to force to submit; subdue.
4.
to overpower.

I completely agree with Turalyon that Tassadar's words indicated forgiveness.

If Hitler was brainwashed by the Japanese would have done what he did anyway, I wouldn't have ever called him courageous in such a passionate way.

As for the video, it's actually a pre-visualization, where lip sync was not done yet, so Metzen's voice was used before utilizing actual voice actors.

[Articorse]

True, but don't forget that it's only because that the first (and only) time we directly see Dark Voice is when the Hybrid have already awakened and were destroying the Protoss. Dark Voice (as Duran) obviously acts like a devious and cunning mastermind when setting up his completion of the cycle.

Once someone completes their goal it doesn't change their character. Duran was completely sure of himself when he told Zeratul about the hybrids. He was certain he had already won - then why would he act differently, considering in both occasions he is certain of his victory? I'd agree that Duran is likely an agent of the Dark Voice, but the evidence points to them not being the same entity.

I don't remember the cinematic very well, but maby it WAS acid rain?

It most certainly was not acid. If it was, Raynor would've had his face dissolve from the splashing raindrops falling on his armor. And seriously, that's what you got out of that? Not that it was unbelieveably over the top, but your biggest hitch was that I might be wrong about the rain not being acid?

Actually, he DOES not know who created Maar. No, he knows it was Duran, but he doesn't know WHO Duran really is nor what the "far greater power" Duran serves is.

Riddle me this. If you witness some person you don't know, wearing a ski mask, murdering someone in the street, then the police ask you who did it, would you answer 'I don't know.'? Because that's what you're saying. Technically you don't know who that man was, nor if he was working for someone. Or would you say 'It was a guy in a ski mask.' then proceed to give as full a description as you can? The fact that Zeratul doesn't know Duran's life story doesn't excuse the idiotic line 'Who could have created this monstrosity?', because he KNOWS it was Duran. Who or what Duran is, or who he works for doesn't matter - it was Duran.

Actually, the only thing Arcturus says to Valerian is "I've just received the reoprt that you've taken half the fleet. Care to explain yoursekf, boy?" and it didn't sound whiny one damn bit and was perfectly sensible thing to ask in this situation. And then he says in the same style as in SC1 "I love your gumption son, but are way in over your head. What meakes you think you have the experience to-" and then Raynor interrupts him and they have their brief arguement about Sarah, whom Mengsk calls "treacherous bitch"... just like like after Duke's death in BW.

What made you think I was talking about that scene and that scene alone? I'm talking about Mengsk's transparent propaganda on the news channel and his absolute incompentence as a ruler. He couldn't figure out there was a spy in the Odin? Okay, I'll buy that. But then he can't stop some small rag-tag army from broadcasting a message that would completely ruin him? And earlier he didn't just destroy the stupid adjutant the second he found out what it knew, but instead had to transport it BY TRAIN, giving ample time for it to be destroyed? And he found out that Valerian had took half his fleet DAYS after it was done? Okay, so nobody bothered to tell him that HALF HIS FUCKING FLEET IS MISSING? Then Mengsk is a moron, because he's allowed himself to be surrounded by imbeciles.

Does Tassadar's revelation change anything or not is another question, which I addressed earlier (in this post and one of the previous), so yeah, that revelation wasn't retcon.

I'll let you duke it out on that front with RussianSpy, he seems to have a better grasp of it than me.

And I didn't say that 'being done with them' = 'they were a failure'. But the Xel'Naga did Protoss as flawed creation because of the loss of communal link.

Earlier you said they were a failure.

BTW, about the Xel'Naga considering Protoss a failure: they did consider them a failure in the way that the purity of form was tainted by the loss of the communal link.

Which is it?

[Karass]

Once someone completes their goal it doesn't change their character. Duran was completely sure of himself when he told Zeratul about the hybrids. He was certain he had already won - then why would he act differently, considering in both occasions he is certain of his victory? I'd agree that Duran is likely an agent of the Dark Voice, but the evidence points to them not being the same entity.

Dark Voice (I'm sure that he is Duran one way or another: mostlikely Duran being his human "facade" of sorts) only acted differenly only because there was no need to be manipulative anymore: the Hybrid already awakened and were laying waste on the universe.

It most certainly was not acid. If it was, Raynor would've had his face dissolve from the splashing raindrops falling on his armor. And seriously, that's what you got out of that? Not that it was unbelieveably over the top, but your biggest hitch was that I might be wrong about the rain not being acid?

If you reread my post, you will see that I said I think Raynor's speech was rather cool, albeit cliche. That's my opinion, your opinion is yours and it's entirely different story. Two individuals will have two opinions on this matter.

What made you think I was talking about that scene and that scene alone?

The fact that we barely even see Mengsk in WoL aside from this scene and his propaganda against Raynor was present there only in his short speech about Raynor being a threat to Dominion... which was a perfectly logical thing for Mengsk to say as he is going out of his way to portay Raynor as a terrorist.

And earlier he didn't just destroy the stupid adjutant the second he found out what it knew, but instead had to transport it BY TRAIN, giving ample time for it to be destroyed? And he found out that Valerian had took half his fleet DAYS after it was done? Okay, so nobody bothered to tell him that HALF HIS FUCKING FLEET IS MISSING? Then Mengsk is a moron, because he's allowed himself to be surrounded by imbeciles

There is nothing to suggest that Mengsk EVEN KNEW what information that Adjutant contained. As for the fleet part, we don't know how much time passes between Valerin taking the fleet and Arcturus receiving the report.

Riddle me this. If you witness some person you don't know, wearing a ski mask, murdering someone in the street, then the police ask you who did it, would you answer 'I don't know.'? Because that's what you're saying. Technically you don't know who that man was, nor if he was working for someone. Or would you say 'It was a guy in a ski mask.' then proceed to give as full a description as you can? The fact that Zeratul doesn't know Duran's life story doesn't excuse the idiotic line 'Who could have created this monstrosity?', because he KNOWS it was Duran. Who or what Duran is, or who he works for doesn't matter - it was Duran.

Yes, I will say 'I don't know'. But I'll also say 'but this was wearing a ski mask'. Zeratul's knowledge about Hybrid's creators is basically of the sort: he doesn't know who created the Hybrid, but he knows that someone's 'ski mask' is Samir Duran.

Earlier you said they were a failure.

Which is it?

You're right, but I didn't say that they were done with the Protoss because they were a failure. My point is that the Xel'Naga recognized the fact of Protoss being a failed creation because their purity of form was sullied by the loss of the communal link, but chose not to interfere with them anymore because they were done with them (since Protoss achieved the purity of form). I apolgized if I wasn't clear enough.

Let me start by repeating that Raynor basically told Tosh that " free the zerg... from somethin' [Dark Voice]. Put 'em on a collision course with the protoss." Do I need to translate hick talk that "Put 'em" means "Which put them Zerg on" :P

Indeed, Raynor does say "Put 'em on a collision course with the Protoss". He says that this something [Dark Voice] put the Zerg on a collision course with the Protoss and that the Overmind created Queen of Blades to free the Zerg from this something (just as Tassadar says "only she can free the Zerg from slavery" in the mission).

[FanaticTemplar]

The fact that Zeratul doesn't know Duran's life story doesn't excuse the idiotic line 'Who could have created this monstrosity?', because he KNOWS it was Duran. Who or what Duran is, or who he works for doesn't matter - it was Duran.

If you may, we don't actually know this. Duran said he was an agent of a higher power, and that implies that he's not alone working on the Hybrids. We actually know that both Ulrezaj and Arcturus have been working on creating Hybrids as well, so it's a good question - who did send that Hybrid there? Why?