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Thread: In Defense of Starcraft 2's story

  1. #1

    Default In Defense of Starcraft 2's story

    First off, Retcons:

    1.) In Brood War Duran flat out states that he serves a "higher power" and it is abundantly clear that he and his boss have no problem manipulating the zerg, and that their plans involve the hybrids. The plot point was there as far back as brood war. The dark voice is the "higher power"

    2.) Blizzrd confirmed that the only real change the dark voice did was force the overmind to focus entirely on the protoss. If you think about it, the Protoss really weren't all that suitable for assimilation. The psychic link that values individialism as well is utterly antithetical to the centralized hivemind, they are damn near impossible to assimilate, and they were REJECTED AS FAILURES by the Xel naga. By all rights, they really shouldn't qualify. If the Overmind had his way he probably would have assimilated others forcefully while leaving the protoss alone.

    3.) Raynor did certainly have some sort of feelings for kerrigan (his attempts to persuade her not to go on that mission at tarsonis, his storming out when mengsk abandoned her, his desire to save her, helping the protoss to finish the fight after learning what happened to kerrigan, his willingness to trust her, the shock and outrage when she murdered fenix, the fact that he tried to appeal to her even as he denounced her). What's more, he still wanted to kill her in wings of liberty (his outrage when zeratul tells him that kerrigan has to live.) He loved what she was, and blamed himself for failing to save her, but he hated the queen of blades and wanted her dead.

    4.) Kerrigan had some feelings for Jim as well (She lets Jim go on char even though the Gravemind explicitly ordered her to "kill all terrans", meaning that the relationship they had was fairly strong, and the fact that she instantly decides to take a break after raynor calls her a monster shows that something about what he said definately registered.

    5.) The books confirm that the reason kerrigan became a sociopath was because the infestation completely shattered her sense of compassion, right and wrong, and morality.

    6.) The Zerg are made partially of void energy, and the artifact explicitly absorbs zerg energy (meaning zerg dna).

    Story

    1.) The reason raynor helped hanson is because her situation is almost identical to what kerrigan went through on tarsonis (both were thrown under a bus by mengsk for convenience) so he couldn't in good consience let that happen to another individual or her people. The fact that he gave up prematurely on Tarsonis helped cause the queen of blades birth also encouraged him to side against selendis.

    2.) Mengsk would not have had tychus continually monitered (continuous audio and video feed would be noticed, and they were already suspicious enough as it was. Since raynor has psychics of his own, having too many back up plans would be deplorably stupid.)

    3.) Starcraft I had some really cheesy ass lines as well (I swear to god I cannot get through tassadar's final speech without giggling.)

    4.) This is still only the jumping off stage. For all we know, Heart of the swarm probably has the most development

    5.) The Evil Kerrigan routine was getting REALLY STALE. They had only one plot that could last for one game; If kerrigan is redeemed, they have more leeway to tell a great story (coming to terms with her sins and the darkness in her soul, evading the people who want her dead, rehabilitating the zerg etc).

    6.) Narud and Duran definately have some connection, but it's unknown what it is.

    7.) Each of the missions tackle raynor's demons (prophecy forces him to face his hatred of kerrigan, covert and rebellion help him fight his cynisim that the fight against mengsk can't be won, colonists allow him to succeed where he failed on tarsonis) while valerian's offer helps him fully regain his idealism (giving him a real chance to save kerrigan and actually make a difference in the galaxy)

    8.) There are cases of dicatators who grow soft once in power (Hitler became extremely lazy after getting to power)

    Starcraft 2 isn't perfect, but people who claim that it "ruins" the series are being a little silly

  2. #2

    Default Re: In Defense of Starcraft 2's story

    Thanks for the post Darth. The topic is heavily discussed right now in the "Fantastic Critique" thread. Have you seen it?

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  3. #3
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    Default Re: In Defense of Starcraft 2's story

    Quote Originally Posted by DarthYam View Post
    The psychic link that values individialism as well is utterly antithetical to the centralized hivemind, they are damn near impossible to assimilate
    The khala doesn't value individualism at all.

    and they were REJECTED AS FAILURES by the Xel naga. By all rights, they really shouldn't qualify. If the Overmind had his way he probably would have assimilated others forcefully while leaving the protoss alone.
    They weren't rejected as failures, that part was a retcon of sorts, in that that part of the manual is from the Protoss' point of view. The Protoss were already suitable because they attained purity of form. The Xel'Naga left because the breakdown of their psychic link was seen as a "conflict of essence".

    (his outrage when zeratul tells him that kerrigan has to live.)
    I didn't really see any of that. :P

    There was zero conflict in Raynor about whether Kerrigan should be saved or killed. His promise from BW, instead of being used as a conflict for Raynor, was just wasted.

    4.) Kerrigan had some feelings for Jim as well (She lets Jim go on char even though the Gravemind explicitly ordered her to "kill all terrans", meaning that the relationship they had was fairly strong, and the fact that she instantly decides to take a break after raynor calls her a monster shows that something about what he said definately registered.

    5.) The books confirm that the reason kerrigan became a sociopath was because the infestation completely shattered her sense of compassion, right and wrong, and morality.
    I don't think anybody disagrees.

    6.) The Zerg are made partially of void energy, and the artifact explicitly absorbs zerg energy (meaning zerg dna).
    They use void energy, they are not made of it. All Xel'Naga tech is capable of manipulating Xel'Naga species because those species were created through Xel'Naga protogenetics.

    1.) The reason raynor helped hanson is because her situation is almost identical to what kerrigan went through on tarsonis (both were thrown under a bus by mengsk for convenience) so he couldn't in good consience let that happen to another individual or her people. The fact that he gave up prematurely on Tarsonis helped cause the queen of blades birth also encouraged him to side against selendis.
    Nobody disagrees with this.

    2.) Mengsk would not have had tychus continually monitered (continuous audio and video feed would be noticed, and they were already suspicious enough as it was. Since raynor has psychics of his own, having too many back up plans would be deplorably stupid.)
    Agreed.

    3.) Starcraft I had some really cheesy ass lines as well (I swear to god I cannot get through tassadar's final speech without giggling.)
    Bah, Tassadar's speech was appropriate and you just don't appreciate the best character in this franchise. :P

    At least it was remotely believable. Not like Raynor's lame speech that somehow accidentally gets broadcast over the radio where he says "but the one thing I know....is that some things....are just worth fighting for". Then after that, the clouds part and a ray of sunshine shines down on the Marines. That right there was a giggle-fest.

    4.) This is still only the jumping off stage. For all we know, Heart of the swarm probably has the most development
    Hoping that the writing inexplicably gets better and that Blizz writers will suddenly start doing something different = fail. Our feedback will mean nothing when all the expos are out and nothing can be changed.

    5.) The Evil Kerrigan routine was getting REALLY STALE. They had only one plot that could last for one game; If kerrigan is redeemed, they have more leeway to tell a great story (coming to terms with her sins and the darkness in her soul, evading the people who want her dead, rehabilitating the zerg etc).
    WoL's evil Kerrigan routine was stale. In Brood War she verbally eviscerated her enemies and it was awesome.

    7.) Each of the missions tackle raynor's demons (prophecy forces him to face his hatred of kerrigan, covert and rebellion help him fight his cynisim that the fight against mengsk can't be won, colonists allow him to succeed where he failed on tarsonis) while valerian's offer helps him fully regain his idealism (giving him a real chance to save kerrigan and actually make a difference in the galaxy)
    Fair point.

    8.) There are cases of dicatators who grow soft once in power (Hitler became extremely lazy after getting to power)
    Even though the Dominion somehow managed to miss that the Odin was not being piloted by the correct pilot, my problem with Mengsk isn't that he became complacent:

    Quote Originally Posted by Jabber Wookie View Post
    The Valerian missions are confusing as Mengsk seems to be childlike when his son steals half his fleet while he stares through a screen saying "You did what?!? Bah!" (portraying him as some cartoon villain that is easily fooled)
    Mengsk, instead of being the interesting character he was in StarCraft, is suffering from pure evil syndrome, just like Infested Kerrigan and the Dark Voice, and it's boring as hell. I mean, just look at his line from that leaked cinematic:
    Hidden Content:
    "Don't judge me you wretched monstrosity! Take your bloody vengeance and choke on the ashes!"

    Even though I'm looking at a possible final cinematic out of context, this line is still garbage, and I wish SC2 had some more interesting characters for villains. Blizzard's villains seem to suck so bad.

  4. #4

    Default Re: In Defense of Starcraft 2's story

    Right after zeratul says "though justice demands that she die for her crimes only she can save us" raynor's like "wait...you're talking about kerrigan." Then he shouts at zeratul about how he's popped up out of nowhere after 4 years. Before he was fairly happy to see Zeratul, if a little bit confused. This shows that, at the very least, zeratul's comments hit some sort of nerve. he also says "it'd be better if she died on tarsonis rather then become the queen of blades." He loves the old kerrigan and feels bad about failing to save her (considering that his failure resulted in her killing 8 billion people i don't blame him) but he utterly despises the monster that she's become. And I actually liked the fire and fury speech, if partially due to the nice shout out they gave to a former dead employee. It shows that the old jim is back and that the stage is set for the final battle. As for mengsk's leaked line; the dude's about to die, and he's always been defiant. It's more like "well if i'm going to die i might as well show balls before I go". Also, the khala hivemind does have some individual presence. And yes, the evil bitch routine in brood war would have had little to go. Oh, she'll be evil and try to conquer everything. There's only one goal she'll work for, and eventually it'll get dull
    Last edited by DarthYam; 12-28-2010 at 04:22 PM.

  5. #5

    Default Re: In Defense of Starcraft 2's story

    I heard a joke where a Blizzcon attendee asks, "Is Brood War canon?" and Metzen says "No."

    Seriously, there is absolutely no allusion to Brood War in SC2 beyond reference that one of the mercenary squads you can buy are UED survivors. Anyone who picks up SC2 without playing SC1 will have no idea who Duran is, neverless that Narud is Duran spelled backward.

    I think this is one of the things that pisses me off the most. Completely ignoring ~30 friggin missions.

  6. #6

    Default Re: In Defense of Starcraft 2's story

    Quote Originally Posted by DemolitionSquid View Post
    I heard a joke where a Blizzcon attendee asks, "Is Brood War canon?" and Metzen says "No."

    Seriously, there is absolutely no allusion to Brood War in SC2 beyond reference that one of the mercenary squads you can buy are UED survivors. Anyone who picks up SC2 without playing SC1 will have no idea who Duran is, neverless that Narud is Duran spelled backward.

    I think this is one of the things that pisses me off the most. Completely ignoring ~30 friggin missions.
    While I mostly agree... there was no actual NEED to reference BW at all. Think about it - SC Vanilla ended with the Dominion gaining power, the Protoss in shambles, Raynor's forces also gathering their strength and Kerrigan in control. BW ended on the exact same point. Sure, at the start of BW Kerrigan had little to no control over the Zerg and there were some wonderful character developments, not to mention how great the UED were. But when vanilla ended, we didn't know Kerrigan had no control over the Zerg, in fact the epilogue states that she's now ready to take control. Basicly, it's a bit of Status Quo is God.

    ... EXCEPT for two rather major points:

    1. Stukov - What the hell? He was infested, then deinfested, and he's not mentioned anywhere? What happened to him? Did rocks fall? He was with Raynor last if I recall correctly, so where the hell did he go and why was there no mention of him? Yeah, I know his deinfestation was stupid, but it was still Canon and as forced as it was, it gave us back one hell of an interesting character.

    2. Duran and the Hybrids - Zeratul knows Duran is making Hybrids. So what does he do? Go by himself on a wild goose chase for prophecies and artifacts, instead of... I don't know... excercising his authority as leader of all Dark Templar to build an army to defend against the eventual arrival of the Hybrids and maybe... just maybe... SEND FUCKING SCOUTS TO DO THE SCOUTING FOR HIM. And why didn't he tell Raynor he knew who it was that was making the Hybrids? It's a long shot, sure, but Duran might appear somewhere and Raynor should know not to trust him. Or anyone that has, I don't know, a similar name to him. Like someone called, oh, off the top of my head... Narud?

    The first point should've been addressed in WoL, and the second point... well, we already know Zeratul is now senile, so it's not that surprising.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: In Defense of Starcraft 2's story

    There is actually a lot of allusion to Brood War in SC2: in the campaign intro Mengsk gives an interview commemorating the end of the Brood War, Zeratul mentions the evacuation of Aiur in Echoes of the Future, Spartan Company are UED survivors (as you mentioned), Raynor mentiones helping out Protoss twice (destruction of the Overmind and the Brood War) an most importantly there is a summary Brood War in both WoL manual and story section on SC2 Battle.net site. As for Dark Origin, it is mentioned in both BW summary and The Dark Templar Saga (the latter being an introduction to SC2).

    As for me, I think WoL story was pretty damn good. It has its flaws, for sure, but they are not that severe or damaging to the quality of the plot. All in all, WoL is a worthy successor and sequel to an excellent story of SC vanilla-BW and the flaws such as lack os Zerg missions and a small amount of Protoss' are justified by the fact that WoL is just the prologue of the actual SC story (and it is a complete story!). I basically agree with Angry Joe's review for the most part. I don't agree with Gradius about Mengsk's character was ruined: in fact, we don't even see him much in WoL and when we see him, he is basically the same as in SC1. For instance, he rage quits on Kate in the same way he tells Raynor "I will rule this sector or see it burn to ahes around me" at the end of Rebel Yell and his dialogue with Valerian just before the attack on Char is consistent with the way how their relation ship is established by the novels. BTW, about the Xel'Naga considering Protoss a failure: they did consider them a failure in the way that the purity of form was tainted by the loss of the communal link. Zamara's revelation doesn't really contradict that, since the Xel'Naga chose not to continue their experiment with the Protoss, they were done with them.

    I also don't consider Dark Voice to be all that cliché: he is actually very consistent with Duran as he present himself in Dark Origin (the whole thing about the completion of the cycle, culmination of history and remolding the universe). And, after all, there is still very little information we have about the Voice (or rather the Fallen One, since Dark Voice is used as his name in subtitles and not his in-universe name). And let's face it: this deal about the cosmic cycle, the Hybrid and the deepened mystery around Duran introduced in Dark Origin was one of the coolest things in StarCraft storyline. Duran's speech at the end of the mission is really atmospheric, maybe even giving the creeps (not in the way of scaring you stiff, of course) when you listen to it.

    Raynor's oath to kill Kerrigan wasn't wasted. As DarthYam said above, Raynor is clearly shocked and upset when Zeratul tells him Kerrigan has to live. But when Raynor sees Zeratul's memories he begins ti understand why he shouldn't kill her. Furthermore, later he meets Valerian, who has the way to revert Kerrigan back to her human form, make her the woman she was before becoming Queen of Blades, who killed Fenix and committed all these atrocities. And Raynor knows Sarah and Queen of Blades are NOT the same, in fact, she outright tells him this when she defeats his forces shortly after he rebirth. Metzen also addressed this matter on BlizzCon and confirmed that Valerian's offer changed everything for Raynor: now he can not just destroy the Queen of Blades, but bring the woman he loves back. IMHO Raynor's speech before the final mission was actually cool. Cliché, but cool. At least it was appropriate. The thing I didn't like, however, was Warfield bragging about how he held the line while Raynor hid under rock, which is an extremely outrageous thing to say, considering the fact that Raynor helped to save the universe from the Overmind. But that's a flaw of Warfield's initial attitude rather than story.

    As for the Overmind revelation, this is completely not a retcon. In fact, the only thing it does is give us a bit of insight on what was behind the Overmind growing beyond Xel'Naga constraints, attacking them and setting out to assimilate the Protoss (as described in SC manual). The “formed with thought and reason, but not free will” part only means that this directive was introduced when the Overmind was being created (another implication that Dark Voice is a renegade Xel'Naga) and “the destruction of our people” changes absolutely nothing: we know very well from SC vanilla that to the Zerg destruction of the Protoss = their assimilation. This revelation also does a good thing in giving us more information on for what (aside from assimilating a powerful Terran psychic) the Overmind used his most powerful agent. It doesn't change anything in Overmind's intentions, only reveals that it used Queen of Blades to resist Dark Voice's control (making Tassadar admire her creation, because she can free the Zerg from Voice's manipulation in the future, thus helping to stop the Hybrid somehow): he was still going to assimilate the Protoss, creating the perfect Swarm, only trying to do this without Dark Voice's manipulation. To sum up, this information from Tassadar only reveals that Dark Voice threw the original course of the cycle in turmoil by staging the destruction of the Xel'Naga in the surprise attack of the Swarm and putting the Zerg on the collision course with the Protoss to create its own version of the Hybrid, thus completing the cycle (in Dark Voice's fashion). Furthermore, BTK directly says in the interview:
    Quote Originally Posted by BlizzPlanet's interview with Brian T. Kindregan, one of SC2 writers
    BP : One of the complaints a lot of people had with StarCraft was the revelation of the Overmind not being such a terrible space beast to begin with. A lot of comparisons have actually been between the Zerg and Warcraft’s Horde now. Do you feel that is at all viable?

    BTK: Actually I don’t and it’s tricky to answer this because of the big background story we have coming up. All I can say is that they are very different entities and aspects. So I definitely understand the feelings of the community about the revelation of the Overmind. I even overheard the word retcon used which is not correct. There is no reinvention of who Overmind is. We are all learning more about what was going on in the background. There is still more to learn. I can say this is not an attempt to make the zerg noble or anything like that. It’s just the beginnings of the revelation about the fact that there were a lot of background forces at work. Basically the races and factions of Starcraft have a lot more going on than what people might think. In fact, I would say that there is a much more complex and deeper and richer thing going on with them.
    In other words, Tassadar's revelation isn't meant to change anyting in Overmind's storyline. It was still going to assimilate the Protoss and Tassadar is still a hero who saved the universe, making his way into his people's legends.
    Last edited by Karass; 12-28-2010 at 06:17 PM.
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  8. #8
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    Default Re: In Defense of Starcraft 2's story

    Quote Originally Posted by Articorse View Post
    1. Stukov - What the hell? He was infested, then deinfested, and he's not mentioned anywhere? What happened to him? Did rocks fall? He was with Raynor last if I recall correctly, so where the hell did he go and why was there no mention of him? Yeah, I know his deinfestation was stupid, but it was still Canon and as forced as it was, it gave us back one hell of an interesting character.

    2. Duran and the Hybrids - Zeratul knows Duran is making Hybrids. So what does he do? Go by himself on a wild goose chase for prophecies and artifacts, instead of... I don't know... excercising his authority as leader of all Dark Templar to build an army to defend against the eventual arrival of the Hybrids and maybe... just maybe... SEND FUCKING SCOUTS TO DO THE SCOUTING FOR HIM. And why didn't he tell Raynor he knew who it was that was making the Hybrids? It's a long shot, sure, but Duran might appear somewhere and Raynor should know not to trust him. Or anyone that has, I don't know, a similar name to him. Like someone called, oh, off the top of my head... Narud?

    The first point should've been addressed in WoL, and the second point... well, we already know Zeratul is now senile, so it's not that surprising.
    Metzen said in one of the interwiew's that they weren't going to involve Stukov in WoL storyline (beacuse Metzen wasn't fond of the deinfestation story), but he may appear in future SC2 installments, as Bill Roper liked Resurrection IV and wished this plotline to be continued.

    The second point was actually covered by The Dark Templar Saga: Twilight. The novel serves as an introduction to SC2.
    Quote Originally Posted by Articorse View Post
    well, we already know Zeratul is now senile, so it's not that surprising.
    Zeratul is NOT senile. The major setback in SC2 is, of course, the most unfortunate death of Zeratul's voice actor Jack Ritschel (R.I.P.), who did the FANTASTIC job in SC vanilla and BW. It would have been terrific to hear his voice in SC2, especially considering Zeratul's storyline involving him trying to avert the universe's destruction by the Hybrid. Fred Tatasciore did a good job, but IMO was unable to fully recreate the awesome feel of Ritschel's acting as Zeratul. This is why Zeratul sounds somewhat senile. I got an impression that he always speaks i nthe tone he spoke to Duran in their dialogue at the end of Dark Origin (in fact, parts of it were very similiar to his voice in WoL).

    Af for Narud, I think it would be unoruginal for Blizzard to make him just another gisguise of Duran. There is a far more interesting version in the community: "Emil" means "rival" and Narud is interested in the Xel'Naga legacy. So, his conceptual role in the storyline may be that of Duran's rival on some sort. A knowledgeable scientist, who works will work with "the good guys" to stop Duran. Especially considering that "Narud" is "Duran" backwards.
    Karass aka XEL

  9. #9

    Default Re: In Defense of Starcraft 2's story

    Quote Originally Posted by Karass View Post

    In other words, Tassadar's revelation isn't meant to change anyting in Overmind's storyline. It was still going to assimilate the Protoss and Tassadar is still a hero who saved the universe, making his way into his people's legends.
    Just because Brian K said it's not a retcon does not make it so.

    I can write a novel where Yoda is 6 feet tall and then say to fans "but it's not a retcon because "shhh....as you will see, that soup he ate on the planet when talking to Luke contained magic ingredients that made him tall and he would shrink back later on - so he was shrinked at all the scenes we saw him" and then say "but it's not a retcon...nothing about Yoda changed, he still talks backwards!!!."

    I hope one day Brian K decides to come either here or unto the battle.net forums and say hi, or maybe even (dreaming here) write an argument or two, but so far we haven't heard a thing from Blizz writers, just one Moderator's post about how they're supposedly there behind the scenes and would someday maybe say something *through the moderators* - post at Andrew's thread
    Last edited by RussianSpy27; 12-28-2010 at 05:58 PM.
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    ================================
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8WRZcYVbVg -

    Iron man putting on armor

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xAHAUJQ8qGQ -

    Tychus putting on armor
    ================================

    "Also, we've established that the [Wings of Liberty's] storyline was monkey hurlage months ago - so what's the point of all the QQ?," -Gradius

  10. #10
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    Default Re: In Defense of Starcraft 2's story

    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    The khala doesn't value individualism at all.
    I may be misunderstanding you (you could mean "individualism" in the Dark Templar way), but pasrt of Khala philosophy is that separate individual and independent entities are bond by mental empathic link.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gradius View Post
    Mengsk, instead of being the interesting character he was in StarCraft, is suffering from pure evil syndrome, just like Infested Kerrigan and the Dark Voice, and it's boring as hell. I mean, just look at his line from that leaked cinematic:
    Hidden Content:
    "Don't judge me you wretched monstrosity! Take your bloody vengeance and choke on the ashes!"
    That cinematic is fake beyond mortal comprehension I just don't believe that Metzen who created these character and handled their development very well would do something as stupid a shown in the said cinematic with them.
    Karass aka XEL

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