Zerg early options vs P

[Todie]

Hammy: i used to be scared shitless about misplacing the hatch; it messes the game up entirely.

for a while, i tried to go for purposely placing the hatch just enough hexes out to leave room for another one on the inside, where the pylon was, but still sort of close enough to use the gas.

this ended up too tricky for me to handle, especially considering the significant differences in play implied by initial mining inefficiency at the nat.. placing the hatch just slightly off was something i dreaded, because it coudlnt be undone; the time spent mining with less than 16 harvesters feels so much more critical than later on with higher saturation.. its not a trade i feel like making, and certainly not something i've felt OK getting arbitrarily forced into.

...but ive never seriously considered it could be worth it, and its truly intriguing to hear that you play that way, with success! i might try it.

About roach aggression / containing before / while expanding, this is certainly something ill try to do more of, but mostly i might open 14 pool; ive heard good things about it...

it seems, the main thing about planning for a 14 hatch and not getting it is the pool gets delayed, and without the larva from an early hatch, early options become more limited, even though the 15-16 drones before pool-plant ensures a decent early income.


... in terms of being reactionary and deciding if/when/how to be aggressive early, i guess building-placement at their front is more telling than the drone scout (that will probably be denied from any intel beyond 1-2 gate core)

... depending on map, persistent roach+ling aggression can work well vs early expansion because that investment for P gives much more time before VR/colossi/etc can truly turn the tide.. i've been thinking though; about something crazy; a reactionary proxy hatch vs a greedy expand? ... i mean, like, after/during the initial roach-poke, instead of expanding... if vs like 1gateforge expand .. a proxy hatch could let you tear down walling buildings with crawlers and get out queens to hold vs the 1-2 VR thats otherwise a convenient answer for P vs early pressure...

its far fetched and situational, but maybe viable? not sure on what maps though, maybe like LT, delta, scrap ?

... ill try not to deviate too much needlessly, other than the opening build as mentioned.

thx for the advice overall. keep posting more reflections on the matter if you think of anything. ill try to remember posting back my "results"...

Peace.

[Twilice]

Hehe, I can sure practise a bit more against you PvZ. But not tomorrow, and maybe not on new years eve (maybe).

I just have to say the two games we played, it felt that you tried to attack at the exact moment I were prepared. Maybe attacking a bit earlier or even a bit later. Maybe it is pretty much depending on the maps, but that thing on Steppes of war was quite interesting altough I saw the creep.

[Hammy]

Concerning the hatch placement, I wouldn't say it's a perfect solution but I definitely think it's better than the alternative. I really need that extra hatch to be out quickly, with or without the attached minerals.

Regarding your builds, could you post a few replays or link me to some relevant openings?
How do your openings alter your transitions afterwards?
I like to 14pool, 15hatch, 18gas. I haven't done any specific tests, but I like this timing because it's been pretty flexible so far. I've been using this frequently since phase2 tbh.
-I get two queens from my main and the second queens pops out as soon as I reach 100 gas, which means I can get lair right there and if my opponent has been passive I can punish him with the economy to support a T2 army. The three early queens are great for creep and defending from weird business.
-I'll have two hatcheries w/ queen very quickly, which means I can transition easily into a +1speedling if I see an opportunity, or I can stay at T1 and power drones before switching straight into a boring mass of roaches to punish stuff like an early expansion. The timing works great.

Btw, I've never tried placing my hatch in a way that I can put my 3rd hatch in the "natural" spot of my expansion, but that sounds like it could work pretty well too. If you're having trouble placing that hatch reliably, I suggest highlighting the "normal" hatchery region without clicking (enable grid), and then putting your finger on the corner closest to the region you want to build on (so that you're sure you won't build over a spot where you'd block your future buildings). That's what I do when I'm trying to do some tricky simcity stuff. You can't miss that way.

I think you might worry too much about hatchery placement. Mining isn't decreased all that drastically in my opinion, and it won't last all game long since you'll be adding on workers anyways. When it comes to gas, if your hatch is a few squares away you only need to add one drone per geyser to maximize your gas income.

Considering all of the mistakes you can make in a game, and the impact of delaying a hatchery, I'm very comfortable misplacing a hatch, but if you want to be super precise about this you might find some interesting info here:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Mining_Minerals

1st and 2nd workers return approx 40 minerals/60s. The following numbers will be vary depending on hatchery misplacement and the way the game evolves, but for the sake of argument let's say placing your hatch a bit further increases travel time by 0.5s.

That means they'll be returning 40minerals/64s => 37.5minerals/60s.
How long will you spend mining minerals from that base before you can have more than 16 workers?
Maybe for 1minute you'll have 4 drones,
=> 4drones*2.5minerals*1minute
Then for two minutes you could have 8 drones,
=> +8*2.5*2
For the next three minutes you might have 16 drones,
=> +16*2.5*3
From there on you can add more drones and your mining speed will get back to the standard plateau established by the time it takes to mine (and travel time becomes irrelevant).

That's approx 170minerals lost in total. It cost 100 minerals to make that pylon (assuming it reached completion, but even if it didn't, your opponent still had to immobilize 100 minerals for quite some time), but 100 minerals invested at the 3mn mark is far more valuable than 170 minerals spread out between 6mn and 12mn...

My numbers might be biased, but feel free to plug in your own or correct my logic. It's a bit late ; )

[masakari]

Regarding laying down the hatch, I do feel that you should lay down the 2nd hatch with enough space to put down a 3rd hatch in the ideal location. You don't have to be so precise though... a few grid squares out is ok, but definitely leave enough space for that 3rd.

The main reason is that you actually need the 2nd hatch just for production purposes, not for mining.... you can even choose to put the 2nd hatch in your main if you are suspecting an aggressive push. Putting the hatch just slightly off so you can mine from the expo immediately is not worth it because the same drones would be getting more minerals harvesting at the main.... and by the time you are reaching saturation, you should have had more than enough time to take out the pylon and put down your 3rd hatch. Go for an aggressive 2 base play since you will have 3 hatches, and the protoss will be hard pressed trying to defend as colossi/templer will not be ready yet... and while this is happening, go grab your 3rd base.

This is from the opinion of a protoss who does do the pylon block. I've seen some zergs just place their hatchery a bit off site and try to mine from the expansion. On watching the replay, the income of the zerg actually drops when he pulls the drones from his main to mine at his hatch. That plus the fact that I always pressure so he is barely able to reach saturation off 1 base, let alone 2. My economy tends to pull way ahead when a zerg does that.

[Hammy]

Go for an aggressive 2 base play since you will have 3 hatches, and the protoss will be hard pressed trying to defend as colossi/templer will not be ready yet... and while this is happening, go grab your 3rd base.

I don't see that happening at all. The P can just turtle there and move out with a 2base army and own the Zerg. It's tough to secure a 3rd after going for 3hatch play unless you can do some serious damage, and the Protoss can scout that 3hatch play very easily based on your hatch placement.

This is from the opinion of a protoss who does do the pylon block. I've seen some zergs just place their hatchery a bit off site and try to mine from the expansion. On watching the replay, the income of the zerg actually drops when he pulls the drones from his main to mine at his hatch. That plus the fact that I always pressure so he is barely able to reach saturation off 1 base, let alone 2. My economy tends to pull way ahead when a zerg does that.

I disagree. It's never bothered me so much to put a hatch 2squares away. If the pylon is placed absolutely perfectly, then I don't have a choice but to put down a hatch further away (in my main or anywhere else, but in that case this whole discussion of placing 2hatches at natural becomes slightly irrelevant) but that forces me into the kind of really obvious strategies that the Protoss can easily predict (heavy T1 aggression off of 3hatch and 2bases...). Those strategies aren't bad per se, but you might as well tell your opponent what you'll be going for before the game even begins, and this'll give him ample time to set up his defense.

[masakari]

@Hammy
You're probably right seeing your a zerg player and I'm toss :P.
Having said that, the next time you set your hatch down 2 squares away and start mining from it, watch your economy. You will see that it will drop somewhat as opposed if you just mine from your main. I feel there's an economic window there to do something else since you could well have maintained your economy at 1 base and do something else? A 7 RR comes to mind. It won't defeat me, but it'll keep me from planting my 2nd base anytime soon.

Also, putting the 2nd hatch down further aways can still be used for gas since you kind of hit saturation at main with just 6 drones. One of my friends loves to contain me with lings, mine gas with his off-hatch, then come out with early mutas before plopping down his 3rd in his natural to mine minerals with many spine crawlers for defence.

Again, this is from a toss perspective, so I won't know what the exact economic situation is at that point, but when my friend explained it to me, it made sense, which is why I now tend to pressure with blink stalkers as a prep for early muta.

[Todie]

.. i feel like tense early sitautions vs P are ratehr common; this wont let me get 16 drones+ mining mienrals at my natural for some time, and if hatchery iss off 2 squares that will keep on hurting for as long a she can keep pressure to deny me from saturating fully.. i dont like it.

but ill think about it.

[Hammy]

One of my friends loves to contain me with lings, mine gas with his off-hatch, then come out with early mutas before plopping down his 3rd in his natural to mine minerals with many spine crawlers for defence.

Again, this is from a toss perspective, so I won't know what the exact economic situation is at that point, but when my friend explained it to me, it made sense, which is why I now tend to pressure with blink stalkers as a prep for early muta.

Yeah I've done that a bit, and when I failed it was usually for other reasons than my general strategy.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean about income after maynarding. I always keep 16workers at my main and maynard the rest. Surely, a 1st worker on my misplaced natural (~37minerals/min) will mine better than a 3rd worker on my well placed main (~20minerals/min). That's why I'm confused about what you're saying.

I understand the concern that the longer you use a misplaced natural, the more you're "losing", but I just try to look at the alternatives... I kind of shrug at the idea of 'losing' a few minerals every minute when I think that I could have already lost the game if I had delayed my hatchery, or I could have gone down a disadvantageous strategic path by being forced into 3hatching needlessly...
Of course I'd need to play a bunch of games in a row where I get pylon blocked before I can make up my mind a bit more...

[masakari]

Actually, based on the site you attached, it does look like its worthwhile to mine in your main till 21 drones. Benefit of a 3rd drone is actually not too bad for the slightly further mineral patches (not all patches are equi-distance). 21 drones (+3-6 on gas) is quite a long time.

But we may be quibbling about a relatively small amount of minerals here... so I guess whichever one one is comfortable with.