Any win is a good win, do you agree?

[masakari]

I find the definition of 'cheese' to be rather vague. Basically, I do detest players who go the same 'cheesy' strat every game without regard of whatever the opponent is doing. Eg. 6 pool everygame.... or cannon rush every game. Playing against them can be interesting... I love scrambling to hold off 6 pools as protoss.... I absolutely hate fighting vs cannon rushes.

However, if a player makes a tactical decision, and based on what he's scouted, do an offensive technique to punish his opponent, I feel its fair. Eg. If protoss got a forge/gateway with the intention of fast expanding, but found that the zerg skipped pool to go hatch at expansion first, then by all means, block up the choke and cannon away.

Without some of these cheeses, alot of strategies will suddenly becomes very macro oriented since no one then has to worry about early game combat.... I dread the day SC ever becomes a 'get 3 bases before engaging your enemy' type of game.... it'll be C&C all over again.

My one big gripe is PvP which is one big cheese fest from beginning to end (I use the term cheese loosely in this respect). Its pretty much 4 gate push or one of its variants, leading up to mass colossi battles. Anything out of this is just not viable and it gets boring fast.... I try to end all PvP games as early as possible as I just don't want to go into a macro game since I don't like getting colossi and every other strat I've tried has failed vs colossi. Aim in PvP - kill or lose within 10mins and hope that I get a terran or zerg opponent next.

[Jabber Wookie]

That's good, because they don't really respect you. They're basically saying that you're not worth a full game and that they think they can beat you in under 5 minutes.

What's a "full game"? Are you saying that there's a time constraint on a legitimate SC2 game? That's complete bs. I don't cheese; however, I completely support anyone who respects players who do. Professional players are trained to cheese and trained to defend cheese play. It's a part of the game.

That's like saying a football team who chooses to throw a Hail Mary are not respecting the other team cuz they think they can win in less time than it would normally take. Don't be bitter cuz people "cheese," learn how to beat it. That makes someone a good player, and still a part of the game, which includes "cheesing."

[Gradius]

What's a "full game"? Are you saying that there's a time constraint on a legitimate SC2 game? That's complete bs.

Uhm, no I never said anything about a specific time constraint, but it's common knowledge that short cheese games are boring & lame. Here's how the GSL S3 champ feels about them:

Congratulations on winning the GSL3! How did you feel after Rain GG'd in Game 5?

Feels very nice, but Rain is cheese man. I wanted a macro game. The finals games were very easy, and only second game is good game. The others are not worthy of final match games.

I don't cheese; however, I completely support anyone who respects players who do.

It makes zero sense to respect those players any more than anyone else when all you know about them comes from your 4-minute game where they did an extremely easy to execute all-in strat. Being grateful to them for helping you improve doesn't mean they have any of their own merits.

Don't be bitter cuz people "cheese," learn how to beat it. That makes someone a good player, and still a part of the game, which includes "cheesing."

I win almost every time I'm cheesed. It's not particularly hard to beat since I scout every nook & cranny of the map on ladder now. It's a part of the game but I don't find it a particularly fun part of the game, and neither am I obligated to respect anyone who thinks they can steal an easy win.

Just to clarify I have no problem with people who do it just from time to time to stay fresh, or just rush you fast with 8 pool, 2 gate, or 2 rax. I'm talking about the people who decide they're going to cheese before the game gets past the loading screen, or who think they can win by building production facilities in your own base. My definition of cheese is pretty vague I suppose, but even things like Bunker Rush I don't consider cheese since there's not much of an all-in element to them due to salvage.

[Kknewkles]

In beta I never cheesed, but I always Zealot-rushed.
I don't respect players who love to cheese too much, but then again - if I can't defend against such a thing - I better go beef my skills up.

[MulletBen]

Who 6 pooled in SC1?

Rarely does cheese actually reflect the merits of the cheeser. Only in certain situations where micro is the key factor in determining the success or failure of a rush is the cheeser's actual aptitude tested. In most other cases, the success of cheese tactics is completely dependent on how competently the cheesed reacts.

Unless it's ZvZ. Then the other player doesn't really have time to react.

[Todie]

Unless it's ZvZ. Then the other player doesn't really have time to react.

ZvZ is no exception FYI. last time i faced 6pool i was 1poolng and still held it easy. i no longer fear it at all. neither should you.

[Genopath]

It's a sign of disrespect, as in if they can beat you with cheese, they more than likely will beat you normally too. On the ladder, that is. In tourneys, it's the opposite, it usually means the cheeser is not confident against the cheesee, and needs to "steal" a win.

So I suppose on the ladder I'd say it's a good win, and beating it back proves you're better than them. In tourneys I would say it's not a good win.

Tell Fruitdealer that. Cheesing once in a while can provide you with an element of uncertainty in particular if you are a known player.

[Jabber Wookie]

Uhm, no I never said anything about a specific time constraint, but it's common knowledge that short cheese games are boring & lame.

Lol that's a sweeping generalization with absolutely no factual evidence.

Here's how the GSL S3 champ feels about them:

So now anything a professional player says is automatically the verdict for everyone? Wow, I used to think bad mannered players were annoying but I guess since Idra does it it's cool.

It makes zero sense to respect those players any more than anyone else

I never said I respected those players more than anyone else. In fact, I technically never even said I respected those players.

Just to clarify I have no problem with people who do it just from time to time to stay fresh, or just rush you fast with 8 pool, 2 gate, or 2 rax. I'm talking about the people who decide they're going to cheese before the game gets past the loading screen

How do you know which players do that? Are you mad after someone 8-pools because you assume they do it every game or do you give them the benefit of the doubt and think they may have just done it this time to "stay fresh"?

or think they can win by building production facilities in your own base

That's been done since SC1. Since when is that not fun? Hell, I'd say seeing a professional player pull off producing units from a building inside the opponent's base is way more fun to watch than a long robot-like macro game.

[Hammy]

It's pretty weird how much people complain about cheese on Bnet.
-cheese isn't imbalanced
-cheese doesn't have to be an all-in
-when you lose to cheese, you still lost, but you lost because of a bad call (which makes it a lot more frustrating)

To those arguing that a pro-player who cheeses thinks he's a weaker player: being smart and knowing your timings means YOU are the stronger player. Having strong macro only makes you good if you can find a way to macro. If you can't, then you're left with nothing and you lose.
I always reference this series for epicness, but remember Ever OSL finals (July vs Best) where July demolished best with two very cheesy plays. Its pretty clear he was the stronger player, but he also showed he was the smarter player, and the most creative. He played to his strengths and rolled over his opponent in every aspect.

If you think players who cheese don't improve, I also think that's false.
It's true that a player who proxy gates every single game on the ladder might be artificially overestimating his rank, but that also applies to a player who always 4-gates, or masses roaches, or goes for a really solid MM timing attack.
Neither of the three last strategies are cheese, but if a player only focuses on one dumb strategy he's doomed to reach a skill-cap very quickly.
If you're a creative cheesy player you'll improve very quickly actually... since you'll really understand the game and its tactics. In fact, 'smart' players can achieve the same results while practicing far less than 'mechanic oriented' players.

[SinsWage]

Well this has certainly been eye opening. Thanks for all the well thought out replies. It's made me see a more broad view of how to play. There's always going to be those folks who get lolmad when they get beaten like this guy, whether it's "cheese" or not.

Anyhow fun discussion.