Any win is a good win, do you agree?

[ooZer0]

Heck if actionjesus can do it and it be called a legitimate win... why are our regular joe cheeses worse?

A win is a win. All in strategies, or what some call cheeses, have large vulnerabilities that can be easy to exploit and the tables instantly turn around. It's an individual's fault for not being prepared to fight off something goofy, not the guy who does the strat.

If you see a weakness is it your fault for exploiting it? A guy doesn't want to check his base even though he knows hes going up against a toss? Cannon rush that fool, its his oversight. Nobody is above cheesing, no matter how much they say or think they are, even pros cheese... a lot.

A win is a win, some might be a little more frustrating to lose against then others. But that frustration shouldn't be directed at the other player, it should be directed at yourself. Instead of saying:

"God this guy is so %*&^in cheesy! %^$* OFF N00B!"

It should be:

"God I can't believe I fell for this easy to stop %*&@'in cheese!"

[Todie]

Personally, no.

I play this game to get better, not to win. While cheesing, from time to time is something that i consider... ok, i have no respect for players that cheese often just to rack in wins.

i take that to mean "yes"; its not AS good a win, but its still a win and cheesing is part of the game.. right?

youre not saying you actually stay away from making a "cheesy" move for the very reason that its cheesy, even thoguh yo scout an opportunity to punish an early weakness..? not in a competitive situation at least?

[Wankey]

I despise people who win to gain points (ie cheesing, cheap strats etc)

I like people who generally play better, better macro, better art of war

But I don't hate people who cheese. More like, haha you cheesed, I can counter it easily. If I lose, bleh stupid cheap strat, and thing nothing of it.

I'm more angry towards games where I throw my best, and things just melt in my face. I find it frustrating and often blame imbalance because of it (and sometimes it is true. Toss player literally has to A-Move against Zerg when he's got the proper unit combo, while I have to dance back and forth like crazy)

[Peanutbutter]

i take that to mean "yes"; its not AS good a win, but its still a win and cheesing is part of the game.. right?

Yes.

youre not saying you actually stay away from making a "cheesy" move for the very reason that its cheesy, even thoguh yo scout an opportunity to punish an early weakness..? not in a competitive situation at least?

In general, i don't consider punishing a potential weakness early in a game as cheesing. If i ever see a potential opportunity, that allows me to get an early advantage over my opponent, i will grab it. Even if i would go all in at this point, i still think that it's fair and not cheesy.

However, if a person goes into a game with a pre selected cheesy build ( Cannon rush, proxy gate, 6 pool, proxy marauders etc ), with the intention of winning ( And only winning ) as quickly as possible, i do consider that opponent " cheesy ".

I think it's a fair win, if a person 4 gates ( or does any other terran/zerg equivalent build ). But as soon as someone does a build, that comes down to if you scout it in time or not, i'd say it's a cheese.

A win is a win, some might be a little more frustrating to lose against then others. But that frustration shouldn't be directed at the other player, it should be directed at yourself. Instead of saying:

"God this guy is so %*&^in cheesy! %^$* OFF N00B!"

It should be:

"God I can't believe I fell for this easy to stop %*&@'in cheese!"

Some cheeses ( As in the ones i mentioned above ), can't be stopped most of the time, since your scout arrives too late, even if you spawn on close positions.

I forgot to answer one more question. No, i have no respect for people that cheese. Rarely have i been cheesed, but once i got matched up against the same guy twice in a row, and he proxy gated me both times. I raged IRL, but didn't say a word to him ingame.

[MulletBen]

... what may be perceived as cheese by many is literally the average game for a zerg player; pylon blocks at ramps, 6-7 pools, canon-contains and bunker rushes literally happens every other game, and if i were to rage out every time it happened i'd be a got-damn rage machine!

Basically, you'd be Idra.

its OK to pay less respect to someone who snags an early easy win becasue such a win doesnt prove that palyers supperiority in a more complex later-game situation. However, that doesnt take away from the fact thats its your own damn fault for allowing the early cheap loss to happen.

I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment. Cheese is based solely on your opponent's mistakes, not your successes. You can't improve as a player using a cheese build, but your opponent can. Cheese only helps the person being cheesed, in the end. A win is a win, and if you can get a win doing something out of the ordinary and catch your opponent off-guard, by all means do it. On the other hand, be aware that you are not winning of your own merit, but on your opponent's mistakes. I don't mind players who cheese, (though I may rage considerably after a match) because I know that their early all-in build might beat me, but I can learn how to handle it. I know that if they keep beating people with the same all-in rush, eventually they'll ladder up until they hit the wall where they only win half of the games they cheese, and won't be able to progress any as a player. Meanwhile, I'll have learned to be one of those players who can't be beat by that build.

Unless it's ZvZ. Most imba matchup ever. It's basically rock/paper/scissors.

[Duckyyy]

I have a confession, im a Zerg player who hates to rush. is that bad ?

[silencbank]

Since I have listened to every State of the Game Podcast since the beginning, I believe that you are referring to the comment about people cheesing in tournaments (most namely GSL) in order to win. If you take it in that context, I would do a LOT of things I do not normally do in order to win $87,000. I would do most any weird cheesy all in just to give myself a better chance to win more money.

But, when I ladder or play vs my practice partners, I do not cheese because the purpose of those games is not to win, but to improve my play. So if I ever run into a cheesing player I do not worry about it, even if I lose. I just add it to my arsenal of what the other player COULD do, and have someone else do that build vs me (if I have never seen it done)so I can think of ways to stop it if I ever encounter it again.

[Todie]

I have a confession, im a Zerg player who hates to rush. is that bad ?

depends on how you define "rush"

reckless early expansions or fast-teching is most effectively faught by early timing attacks; if you spot your opponent being reckless early and opt not to punish them "just because" then yes, its probably bad.

a zerg player that hates to cheese however? thats probably quite normal and not bad in any general sense (though, in a consistent competitive context, refusing to cheese at all might make you predictable)

[ooZer0]

However, if a person goes into a game with a pre selected cheesy build ( Cannon rush, proxy gate, 6 pool, proxy marauders etc ), with the intention of winning ( And only winning ) as quickly as possible, i do consider that opponent " cheesy ".

Some cheeses ( As in the ones i mentioned above ), can't be stopped most of the time, since your scout arrives too late, even if you spawn on close positions.

Cannon rushes are really easy to spot and can be pretty easy to defend. 6 pools don't even require very much thought to push back. Proxy gates and rax though are a little more difficult, but proper scouting should let you know something is up.

And personally, I don't understand why people scout so late in this game. Why wait till your pool, gateway or rax is started before scouting? I ALWAYS scout after my pylon, supply depot or overlord is started. There is little reason not to and your worker will virtually every time get into the base and see if something is up, even before the dreaded marine comes out. I think a scout on 12-14 isn't "normal" timing, but late. I mean seriously, by the time the worker even reaches the base their first production building is probably gonna be done and you run the risk of seeing nothing. A 9 -10 scout will guarantee sight into your opponent's base, give you all the info you need (especially if you micro it well) and can even do early harassment and maybe cause a few mistakes...

[Jabber Wookie]

As many have stated, any win is a good win imo. However, also as many have stated, I do not like the fact that there are players who literally, say, 6-pool every single game they play just to try and get as many wins as they can. However, I think I have a higher win percentage against players who cheese than against those who don't so it doesn't directly affect me.

I just feel bad for the newer players who might experience this their first ten games of playing and want to give up on SC2 before realizing how much fun it can be once you learn how to defend against it.

Otherwise, I both enjoy quick games with lots of micro and long macro games with strategic builds. I usually play on the fly and just arbitrarily decide to either fast hatch and play a macro game or baneling bust if I'm in the mood. I never 6-pool because I feel a good player can defend it too easily. But a well timed baneling bust works pretty often for me and I don't feel like I "cheesed" them if they weren't prepared.