Any win is a good win, do you agree?

[SinsWage]

I was listening to state of the game a few days ago and all the guys on there shared the opinion that if you can win a game in 6 minutes or so, with a rush/cheese/all-in, good for you. This is clearly not the community's general consensus. I find myself vacillating on this point. Of course I enjoy a challenge. Even when losing I tend to enjoy a multi base longer game, but there are those times you realize after scouting that you could simply do such and such and end the game early.

What's your opinion? Do you respect a player who steamrolls you early, or does it fill you with hate? Do you always take the opportunity to secure an early win or do you knowingly prolong a game in the interest of fun?

[Gradius]

I'll have to go with any win is a good win. However, I don't really respect the players who win that way. I just call GG & leave if I'm on the losing end. Frankly, it's bad news for anyone if cheesing or proxying on the ladder fills them with hate.

[JackhammerIV]

Well I don't know if this has been the case for other Toss but in my experience...PvP.....they're all trying something cheesy/all in/rush like double gateway zealot rush (strangest of which was one I experienced on Shakuras) or the exact same strat as mine but for mass stalkers. Only ones who don't are random Toss. So I've pretty much been going 10 gate, fast warp gate with 4 gateways in every PvP. And considering I've hit a few zergs doing pool first into roaches fast to kill me I've adopted the same strat in PvZ since it defends that early roach push quite well.

I don't think the community minds so much considering how many people actually use early rush strats. Going for early rush strats blindly serves as a good defense against your opponent doing an early rush strat and if they're playing standard you can put on a bit of early pressure which you normally wouldn't be able to. If you can win it early then sure by all means why not.

In the end 1v1 laddering is the wild west. It's crazy out there. Best way to get a straight up game...is just to play a custom game with a friend.:P

EDIT: In the end if they can steamroll you early it means your build or the way you play leaves a small opening for them to exploit with an early rush. No reason to get angry about it. But that is the reason I switched to more an early rush style. Had a night with lots of opponent early rush losses when i was playing standard. I guess next year I'll back off it slightly to make it more an early pressure not completely focused on a fast easy win and see how that goes. Until then i'll just see how my opponent deals with it if they're playing standard.

[Louis]

Yes. Any legit win is good, and if the opponent is unable to respond then perhaps they should review their strategies.

[Blazur]

Any win is a win. I've been on both the giving and receiving end of many cheeses so would be a hypocrite if I raged about it. Frankly, I'm happy with quick wins because it helps me grind up faster which is what's important to me.

[0mar]

A win's a win. Simple as that. If I can win every game by 7 pylon, 8 gateway, I will do exactly that. The ladder is competitive; if you don't like it, go play Zealot Frenzy in the custom games section.

It's like complaining about "cheap moves" in a fighting game. There's no such thing as a cheap move; only bad players who can't respond.

[flak4321]

More or less, yes, with one very notable exception: if you win by hacking or cheating, that is most definitely NOT a good win.

I might rage a little when I lose to a cheese strat, but I know in most cases I either screwed up or was outplayed. For example, in a ZvP in late October/early November I lost to some cannon cheese. My mistake was I didn't scout effectively. Did I rage? Yes, but at myself.

I've also pulled off some 6 pool and marine rushes and felt them to be good wins because I knew I could win that way. Creating the occassional cheese win is a good win to me because it keeps your mind sharp on the timings of such things and in turn improves your responses if you scout an opponent's cheese coming.

On a related note, I have faced a few cheesers whom I forced into the mid game and in scouting realized that post-cheese attempt, some of these people seem absolutely lost. One even said to me "OMG WHAT DO I DO NOW!?!?!?" Others have a back-up plan forming as the cheese strike initiates.

Basically, any legitimate win can be a good win, depending on how you look at it, just as some losses can be a good losses. Monday night I lost a 2v2 TTvTP where the P bolstered his zealots and stalkers with some excellent psi storm placement. 10-12 HTs can really reduce a bio ball fast! Combined with sufficiently closely timed battles, I could not effectively divert resources to ghosts, which could have turned the tide quickly. A loss with a learning experience is a good loss.

[Todie]

... what may be perceived as cheese by many is literally the average game for a zerg player; pylon blocks at ramps, 6-7 pools, canon-contains and bunker rushes literally happens every other game, and if i were to rage out every time it happened i'd be a got-damn rage machine!

sometimes, quite early and highly committed timing-attacks are the go to strategic reaction to an opposing build (be that something heavy on early tech or economy that leaves itself open) ... if you arbitrarily decide against such agression, its gonna cost you games.

its OK to pay less respect to someone who snags an early easy win becasue such a win doesnt prove that palyers supperiority in a more complex later-game situation. However, that doesnt take away from the fact thats its your own damn fault for allowing the early cheap loss to happen.

... everyone can get angry at losing though, but still, a win is a win, and a loss is always your own fault.

another reason to frown upon it can be if its a more friendly / less competitive game where you might expect / want to get a longer game out of it for the sake of entertainment or higher educational value.. but IMO this too is far fetched; you need to always be ready for shit to happen; if you are, see it coming and adapt properly it can become a good game from there (unless the opponent truly went all in with it and cant transition)

An example: if im sloppy and allow my ramp to get pylon blocked in a custom game i will get frustrated and in search for excuses i might lash-out "why are you doing this, knowing it will get patched into becoming less effective come 1.2" (knowing pylon-blocks will require 3 pylons..) at the end of the day however, im gonna call GG at losing, only blaming myself and my lazy attitude for the loss.

... i suspect many players, maybe mostly in the lower leagues, make excuses for not playing in certain ways as they believe them to be cheesy or unfair or make the game boring. The fact of the matter is, they are not; playing competitively enough you learn to expect anything and everything an opponent can throw at you and only blame yourself if you lose to it..... if you allow yourself to default on certain play-styles for other reasons than deeming them too risky or ineffective you are in effect being a scrub; letting the game play you instead of playing the game.

a final reflection on this matter is to what extent risky / all-in strategies are too rewarding as a whole in various matchups / maps / skill levels. if thats the case though, hate the game, not the player. (that is, engage in constructive mannered discussion about the issue)

i only even consider prolonging a competitive game if im very certain of winning it. playing zerg though, much of the time its safer to prolong the game than to hit hard and try to finish it.


...This isnt BGH NR15...

[Corgon]

I say any win is a good win. And I do respect players who try to cheese/proxy/whatever because to call yourself a good player, you need to learn how to deal with that kinda stuff. If you are able to counter the proxy/rush/whatev then that's an easy win, because cheese is risky, it's pretty much an all out attempt, and if you fail, your screwed. So, you need to learn how to deal with cheese instead of whining, because in the end, when you lose to cheese, you are really losing because of poor scouting, or being unprepared.

[Peanutbutter]

Personally, no.

I play this game to get better, not to win. While cheesing, from time to time is something that i consider... ok, i have no respect for players that cheese often just to rack in wins.