How does Zerg keep up stamina against toss / terran?

[Wankey]

I just played an epic game against a Toss but I feel a lot of the game design elements affected me more than the actual gameplay decisions.

Looking at my APM, I was 101 - 120 avg APM throughout the game while my enemy was 50-60 APM. I honestly felt more and more tired after the game went on. And because of that, my production went down, my in game decisions became worse and overall micro was affected (even though my APM went higher and higher)

Are there are any tricks to zerg to better use my APM?

I feel drinking a ton of coffee before hand really helps but seriously, that's just a bit too much.

[The_Blade]

fast mouse... hotkey your hatcheries and your queens on two different numbers only

I still play random, but when I suddenly get more games as terran or protoss I might lose a game with Zerg because they are so different to manage.

[ooZer0]

I'll sorta quote Day9 on this one:

"You only need 60 to 70 actions per minute in this game to do ALL that you need to. However, you need 120+ to be an absolute baller..."

90% of this game is half mental. Cheers madden...

Stressing your opponent out, making them over react, have them feel like they are on the verge of dying at every turn is part of the mental aspect of this game. It's used quite extensively in Bo5 tournaments to beat an opponent before the next game even starts.

If you aren't used to doing 120 apms for an entire game session, going at 100-120 apm's for the majority of it, is just going to wear you out. Obviously its a good thing to push yourself and get used to those high apm's for intense games, but if you are content to not be a pro, you don't need to push yourself like that. Sixty to eighty actions per minute is all you really need to do in Sc2 to do what needs to be done and win. Anything above that is usually because of spamming or intense micro management. Either of the two take away from the time you have to macro. So forcing your opponent into that situation where their normally 40-50 apm spikes up to 110 for a prolonged period is a very bad mental state for them, as you have so seen.

The technique I use for increasing my apm, is by what I call scout micro'ing. For me (toss) I use the probe that builds my first pylon and just walk it all around the map while focusing solely on that probe. Never look at your base unless you have to build a building (because you need to pick a spot to set it). Only use hot keys to select production buildings and hotkeys on your army units. The trick is to never let your money get to high and never let your scouting probe become idle and NEVER use shift-que to que up movements to keep it from being idle.

It is really surprising how much faster your hands become after a while, as well as you figure out a good hotkey set up for you. After that, just set the AI to harder and harder levels until you feel comfortable doing nothing but watching the probe and curb stomping insaine AI. You can also do it with your friends. However, I wouldn't recommend trying it out on the ladder, because you will lose constantly (or at least you won't feel tip top) until you have practiced it for a good while.

[GnaReffotsirk]

Wankey, don't worry. It's how it is. Zerg kind of require constant APM at high numbers, while other races sort of have burst APM requirements. You'll get used to it.

Though, coffee helps a ton.

[JackhammerIV]

Maybe you should try slowing down. Like in the Day9 Daily where Day9 coached djWheat. When we first saw djWheat play he spammed a lot moving here and there. Focused on battles. Then Day9 told him in the next game to just slow down. Stop looking too much at the battles. Go back spawn larva. Make drones. Put guys into gas. Etc.

I would say if you want to maintain your stamina then try to make things more efficient. Do more with less APM. Micro where you need to but if it's looking good so far in the battle then just go through all the normal things. Like CLOUDS. Creep tumors, Larva inject/use larva/stockpile larva, Overlords, Upgrades, Drones, Scouting.

Or do what Day9 says he did when he started to get better. Just focus on macro and keeping money low. Then just attack move your units and keep macroing. Power overwhelming opponents with just more stuff, better upgrades and a better economy.

[Wankey]

Wankey, don't worry. It's how it is. Zerg kind of require constant APM at high numbers, while other races sort of have burst APM requirements. You'll get used to it.

Though, coffee helps a ton.

I sure does. The played a 3v3 last night pumped on coffee. My allies were oblitreated and I took on their entire force with my army while expanding 4-5 bases and harassing with zerglings all over the place.

It was really a sight to see and I could feel the mental concentration. Then the caffeine / sugar crash came and I just sucked the rest of the night.

[Arkalis]

Shouldn't this be in the Strategy Forum?

[Jabber Wookie]

I just played an epic game against a Toss but I feel a lot of the game design elements affected me more than the actual gameplay decisions.

Looking at my APM, I was 101 - 120 avg APM throughout the game while my enemy was 50-60 APM. I honestly felt more and more tired after the game went on. And because of that, my production went down, my in game decisions became worse and overall micro was affected (even though my APM went higher and higher)

Are there are any tricks to zerg to better use my APM?

I feel drinking a ton of coffee before hand really helps but seriously, that's just a bit too much.

I can't remember the thread to redirect you, but I said this exact thing a while back and posted a replay in which I had higher APM, more resource income, more army and supply than my opponent, and I feel I used more micro considering he just massed an M&M ball and rolled over my vastly superior army in seconds. I'm sure I used some ineffective counters, but overall I think it's pretty difficult as a zerg player.

I won't give up on them as they are my favorite race and were in SC1, but I overall believe they are imba at platinum level against terran. I don't have as much trouble with protoss as I'm good at beating them early game before they can amass a destructive army. However, I realize they're balanced at really high level play, but ya I think they are the UP race of the three at around platinum level imo.

I get sick of watching replays in which I have higher everything in the tab and use micro effectively but still lose to what I believe to be a worse player than me. But who knows, maybe I'm wrong and they're just using their APM more wisely and building a better unit composition. But it seems easier for a race that can just mass an M&M ball amongst many other things and all I can do is outresource and try my best to scout and quickly produce the correct counter.

Not to mention, many opponents at the end of these games have even said I should have won, which leads me to believe they're aware they were less skilled but terran is just more noob friendly at platinum level. Again, I know they're much more difficult to use at high level play and zerg can be a worthy opponent at that level. But as a platinum player, I sometimes consider switching races. It's just so hard to let go of my favorite multiplayer race that has done well for me for so long in SC1.

[Duckyyy]

I can't remember the thread to redirect you, but I said this exact thing a while back and posted a replay in which I had higher APM, more resource income, more army and supply than my opponent, and I feel I used more micro considering he just massed an M&M ball and rolled over my vastly superior army in seconds. I'm sure I used some ineffective counters, but overall I think it's pretty difficult as a zerg player.

I won't give up on them as they are my favorite race and were in SC1, but I overall believe they are imba at platinum level against terran. I don't have as much trouble with protoss as I'm good at beating them early game before they can amass a destructive army. However, I realize they're balanced at really high level play, but ya I think they are the UP race of the three at around platinum level imo.

I get sick of watching replays in which I have higher everything in the tab and use micro effectively but still lose to what I believe to be a worse player than me. But who knows, maybe I'm wrong and they're just using their APM more wisely and building a better unit composition. But it seems easier for a race that can just mass an M&M ball amongst many other things and all I can do is outresource and try my best to scout and quickly produce the correct counter.

Not to mention, many opponents at the end of these games have even said I should have won, which leads me to believe they're aware they were less skilled but terran is just more noob friendly at platinum level. Again, I know they're much more difficult to use at high level play and zerg can be a worthy opponent at that level. But as a platinum player, I sometimes consider switching races. It's just so hard to let go of my favorite multiplayer race that has done well for me for so long in SC1.

pretty much agree with everything youve stated, i dont have the perfect micro but in most cases i do feel like im putting more effort in and much more alert, im a die hard Zerg fan i love em only got my 50 win icon for zerg but i feel i know what im doing, mid game i usually have 3-4 hatcheries pumping out units without worrying about stretching my mins too far and i set up the decent creep traps burrows, banelings captures etc but like you i just get steam rolled by a A + Move Bioball or A + move Stalker, Collosi i dont rage as they are using there races well if you think of it but yeah i do feel like zerg is deffinately the UP race, but i still stick with em i wanna be one of the ones who can say i stuck with them even when they were ugly.

[Todie]

crap. i wrote a several praragraph reply earlier but apprently never posted it.

basically, whats straining with zerg is crisis-management.. whenever you actually go "oh crap, this situation will be hard to deal with!" there is like a million things youll want to do at once. and you cant. even then, 70 apm compared to 120 makes little difference i think, compared to realizing what is most important to do, and what to do first, and esepecially, how to not end up in that situation.

its a enver ending balacne act: stay one step ahead in army count whenever they start looking sceary sot aht you have time and space to combat them on your tems if they DO get agressive, yet stay as far ahead on economy and teching pace as you can get away with... its easy to go to heavy on the econ/teching pace and get overwhelmed. and when that happens, its easy to blame it on something else than being ill-prepared.

.. im realzing that we're all probably not scouting enough. it mgiht be worth to be very persistent with changelings etc, as to be better able to constantly adapt to teh situation...

... i get by with 70-80 APM