Latest Huk replay on Husky is a good argument for doing something about Marauders

[Blazur]

huk was outplayed, nothing more. Watch some of the latest GSL matches, there are ways to deal with Marauders which huk doesn't touch on.

I don't agree he was outplayed. Huk seemed to be playing very well and had a few critical attacks against his opponent. I believe he lost because of 3 things:

- The strength of the PF in the middle of the map fortifying that position.
- The pathetically ineffective Archons with their 2 range (every other ranged unit in the game out ranges them).
- The OP marauders with their concussive shells being able to kite that entire army and withstand a few storms.

[Norfindel]

I'm beggining to think that there is so much rushes and cheese from Protoss players, because they're used to do that or die.

Seriously, give a P GW+Core tech, a T Barracks w/Tech labs, and a Zerg a choice of Pool+Warren or Pool+Baneling as he sees fit, and see if GW tech is viable. I just don't imagine don't trying to get AoE against either a Zerg or a Terran. I think that would be sure dead.

Just look at the amount of Terran units in the replay. We know how much damage do Marauders do, we know how much damage do Stalkers do. He needs to get Charge, and even that cannot reach the Marauders. He gets Colossi, and they are anihilated by a ridiculous ass-cheap air unit that deals 28 dmg vs massive from 9 range. There's no way the Stalkers can do much against them before the Marauders reduce them to crap. Seriously, it's better to face Corruptors, at least the Zerg don't have Marauders.

On top of that, they can 100% defeat the LoS mechanic, reveal Observers and Dark Templars by scanning, or EMPing (well, i will leave EMP at that, no need to say more). And what about Stimpacks? Any limitation for Stimpack use is defeated by Medevacs.

And wait, what's that on the center of the map? A Planetary Fortress, the building that can resist any amount of GW units with some repair.

Why do the Marauders even move that fast? They move as fast as a Marine, and the same speed than an upgraded Zealot. And 6 range? Why not?

We're seeing here mostly Terran Barrack tech vs Protoss T3 and a lot of micro.

Why is it assumed that the Protoss player is playing bad because he didn't used even more micro and gas to cast FF?

Skill requirements should be similar on both sides. Otherwise, it's not balanced.

[dreadmourn]

Very well said Norfindel, I also don't believe that Toss is better than Terran late game. Here are some of the reason in IMHO.

1st They say Psi storm is beast against Terran Bio (why not use other units? like Thor? BC? etc...) whereas it can be countered easily by a more easily obtainable ghost compared to HT.

2nd Colossus is also good againt Terran Bio again the same scenario with Psi storm only this time it is countered by Viking which is again easily obtainable and massable

3rd Thor I can't even believe that this unit exist in SC, high ground damage and long range AA with 400HP + 250 strike cannon that can 1 hit Immortal (wherein Immortal is supposed to counter Thor and also I believe thor cannon can be researched without armory? please confirm)

4th Raven very annoying flying caster unit PDD almos negates your stalker army.

I also believe that Terran haven't fully exercise its tech because its Bio army is so effective that teching is not needed much and thats why many are saying that Terran is weak late game compared to Toss because two of Toss tech 3 units are countering T1 units (namely Colossus and HT).

[GnaReffotsirk]

Zealot counters Marauders is a lie. Also, one problem I see is that on resourcing, Terran can outmatch any race. Protoss need their resources.

Say on a race graph, we see that:

Zerg - 3
Protoss - 2.5
Terran - 2

Then add mules, which gathers minerals which can:

1. Allow production of more Rax.
2. Allow production of Maras in mass.

I don't even consider Protoss taking a lead in a 14 CC Terran, even if toss goes 15 Nex.

[Todie]

Infantry kiting is a fact of starcraft, like death is a fact of life. if kiting was nerfed to the point where zealtots could a-move to effectively counter marauders (by removing stim for example) then the whole damn game would need to be rebalanced around that. bigtime. meaning more P nerfs, or more likely new terran buffs.

if something needs to happen, even if something does happen, it WILL be subtle. be sure of it. Marauders will continue being able to kite. deal with it.

.. a subtle nerf to stim might make it more situational, but i cant say for certain that'd be a good thing so ill leave it there.

protoss GW based armies are WTF-scary in confined spaces; spaces can be confined additionally by critical masses of GW units, focefields (and hallucinations?). this is the strength of the core protoss army. Z and T armies have other strengths to play to.

bring enough GW units to a position and choke it off with FF's and youre generally in a position to wreak some serious havoc. This will be harder to do in some situations and in some maps. and when it cant really be done, even a great player like Huk will be in trouble in a way that can be painful to watch.

Huk was behind on economy at several portions of this game (and not because of MULE) he went from basic GW into colossi into HT's without ever really being able to take any decisive wins in battles. as a result, he couldnt prevent the PF going up in the center, and from there it was uphill, as he was unable to amass the amounts of units needed to move in and threaten the PF, witch the kiting marauders took very effective cover behind, to heal.. Much in line with what Flak said on page 2.... It might be the map that is terrran favored.

Norfindel : as you are presenting the case, you view PvT as fundamentally broken in T's favor. it infact isnt. calm down and present more balanced arguments if you expect to be taken seriously by anyone that has a clue. dont be a troll.

[Zabimaru]

Norfindel : as you are presenting the case, you view PvT as fundamentally broken in T's favor. it infact isnt. calm down and present more balanced arguments if you expect to be taken seriously by anyone that has a clue. dont be a troll.

This please... I’m struggling to even read this thread as it is now.

[Gifted]

What I think is hysterical is that no one seems to be bothered by the simple fact that a protoss has to use almost every unit at his disposal to counter massed marauders. It's literally all the guy made, plus a few ghosts and some three medivacs. He even stopped making vikings after a while cause one of the designated counters of terran infantry got owned by terran infantry.

Then you shit on the protoss player for using 'only' five unit types! And if you say "Well but uh he did make the wrong units", you're overlooking the fact that a giant ball of marauders backed up by three medivacs (which Huk feedbacked), two ghosts (which Huk also feedbacked) and a couple of vikings (initially, but Huk focussed them down quite well so Excrement quit building them) is apparently the counter to ALL those unit types. That can't be right.

I don't contest Huk couldn't have made other stuff that would've worked, but I'm flabbergasted at everyone seeming so used to marauders being the be-all-end-all of terran. Don't you want some diversity?

First, you're exagerating on many accounts. For example,5 medivacs vs 3 is a significant difference. Let's not forget the vikings which were created to counter the collossus. The marines that were in the first 15 minutes in the match. And you speak as if both the armies were always in the same level of food each time. Almost every battle the terran army had the advantage of numbers/food count.

Side rant:

Hidden Content:

A 2 Knights, a 3 Archers and a 4 Footman are on a field. They are surrounded by 40 peasants with pitchforks. In theory, the knight/archer/footman are overpowered cause they have more expirience, more armor on their body, better weapons and a signficantly better composition. But peasants manage to take them down.

In the background, the a post comes up on "Medival Legacy's" forums that states "Peasants can defeat an army that has higher tech units with a better composition".

You're not even realizing that you aren't looking at the situation right... you're repeating the same mistake in almost every "OMG OP" thread which is using a replay with uneven battles to make an argument. There was almost always a larger army for the terran. This is a case that the ARMY SIZES were unbalanced... not the UNITS.

This lead to a circumstance of the terran being able to establish a constant set of harrassment followed by some significant expansion denial. This all lead to the ability of him being able to outmacro huk. The entire game you can watch the food count before each battle.. you take the total foods, remove the worker counts and you'll see a significant difference between both fights. It's not a case of "Marauders vs Huk's good composition", it's a case of "a LARGER force of marauders" vs "a significantly smaller force with a good composition". The REASON why huk had to depend on much more micro to handle this opposing force was because he had the smaller force of the two, many times by a significant amount. If the micro on both sides were the same, Huk would have been obliterated by pure mathmatical mechanics.

All this replay shows is what happens when you can deny expos to your opponent. Huk basically was forced into making what he could afford both in resources and time. The terran player forced Huk into subpar choices. The notation that the marauder is the counter to all these units based on this replay is fallacy at its finest. Huk could not mass the numbers he needed, nor could he do anything when the Terran retreated to the PF, because he couldn't mass the proper units.

Another strategic note would be Huk's choice of Hts. At least 2 should have been summoned at the left expo and sent behind the PF on the low ground, safely out of range (proven by the fact that the one real pursuit by Huk did not draw PF fire that I saw). Storm on those SCVs would have forced the terran to hang back and transfer resiurces to making more scvs instead of troops. A concerted attack on the PF bereft of scvs would have nullified the economic advantage.

Between his own mistakes and the superb expo denial of the Terran player, Huk basically got outplayed. No imbalance in this replay, however, something might be said about concussive shells vs. Archons. There should be no effect as the Archon should be considered massive.

Agreed on all accounts, including the Archon. Even if you don't make it massive... just negating Con.Shells like the Ultralisk would be acceptable IMHO.

change concussive shells so that it affects light units ONLY. Since medium units and armored units don't move that fast anyway.

It'll also be a indirect nerf against roach (guess roach buff again)

I dunno why they didn't try that instead of buffing roach range by 1.

Making it slow light units only would make the upgrade more decision based on whether you want to counter mass lings or zealots over just picking it arbitrarily

Interesting idea, I'd be interested to see the data on this idea.

lots of bla bla here when the answer to the OP Marauders is simple. Remove Stim.
Problem solved

.... blah bah, reply, blah blah blah, imbalanced, blah blah blah, sun conure, blah blah blah, blah, I like pie.

Infantry kiting is a fact of starcraft, like death is a fact of life. if kiting was nerfed to the point where zealtots could a-move to effectively counter marauders (by removing stim for example) then the whole damn game would need to be rebalanced around that. bigtime. meaning more P nerfs, or more likely new terran buffs.

if something needs to happen, even if something does happen, it WILL be subtle. be sure of it. Marauders will continue being able to kite. deal with it.

.. a subtle nerf to stim might make it more situational, but i cant say for certain that'd be a good thing so ill leave it there.

protoss GW based armies are WTF-scary in confined spaces; spaces can be confined additionally by critical masses of GW units, focefields (and hallucinations?). this is the strength of the core protoss army. Z and T armies have other strengths to play to.

bring enough GW units to a position and choke it off with FF's and youre generally in a position to wreak some serious havoc. This will be harder to do in some situations and in some maps. and when it cant really be done, even a great player like Huk will be in trouble in a way that can be painful to watch.

Huk was behind on economy at several portions of this game (and not because of MULE) he went from basic GW into colossi into HT's without ever really being able to take any decisive wins in battles. as a result, he couldnt prevent the PF going up in the center, and from there it was uphill, as he was unable to amass the amounts of units needed to move in and threaten the PF, witch the kiting marauders took very effective cover behind, to heal.. Much in line with what Flak said on page 2.... It might be the map that is terrran favored.

Interesting thoughts, Most of which I agree with thus why I quoted for a good set of thoughts.

Norfindel : as you are presenting the case, you view PvT as fundamentally broken in T's favor. it infact isnt. calm down and present more balanced arguments if you expect to be taken seriously by anyone that has a clue. dont be a troll.

Norfindel, I'm quoting this to ensure you saw it, it is a good point that may help your reply.

[Norfindel]

Blizzard itself said that Terrans have the advantage early game, and that's easy to see in the game.

Units with big amounts of HPs and heavy attacks are generally short-ranged and quite slow, like the Immortal, not pretty fast and long-range like the Marauder.

Just answer this question: do you think that the Terran player needs to put as much effort as the Protoss player?

[Sietsh-Tenk]

I don't think so, especially now that the main micromove for bioball, kiting, is pretty easy to perform due to terrific pathing and shooting/reaction time.

As a protoss, in early game, you often have a single window of opportunity to win vs a bioball: a well-placed forcefield. If you don't have the Sentry or misplace it, it's often gg.

Now again, I love terran, I think they're the most fun race to play (chess-like, but you have to use tanks! Tanks are what makes them awesome!) and I played them until about a week ago, but it just seems that, judging by replays, even top-level players get away with spamming the same unit ALL FRIKKIN GAME LONG. It's just boring.

[Blazur]

What are people's thoughts on making conc. shells either a manual ability or an autocast ability with a cooldown...similar to zealot charge? This is one of those abilities that I believe is insanely powerful for such a cheap cost and would benefit from some extra micro requirements.