What is it about Ghosts that actually let them stand a chance against the Toss?

[Pandonetho]

Alright, so we all know that your average ghost is run of the mill against your average Protoss (according to the DT saga).

We know Terran technology is inferior to Protoss technology.

A zealot could probably beat a ghost in a mind battle.

What do ghosts actually have that allow them to effectively take on missions against the Toss?
And how come they're not psionically detected by nearby Protoss?
IIRC Ghosts find each other very easy to read, do they have some way of hiding themselves?

Also, it seems like the gaps between each number on the psi index are huge.
Seeing as how Nova is PI 10 and has the ability (even though it was activated by grief) blow up an entire block and kill hundreds of people, which I doubt your average Zealot can do.

Also, telekinesis, PI 8 or higher, do Zealots possess telekinesis? Why not pick up Zerglings and fling them towards yourself to slice it in half?

I'm curious as to the kinds of ranges between Terran psionics and general Toss psionics.

We know high templars are way out of league and probably would rank over 9000 so let's not include them in this discussion.

However, if your average ghost is around a PI of 5-7, would that make most Zealots a PI of 7? 7.5? We've no evidence suggesting they possess telekinesis.

Thoughts? Answers?

[MattII]

Zealots would probably be closer to PI 4, although they might well be higher if they weren't constantly maintaining their shield.

[Kimera757]

Alright, so we all know that your average ghost is run of the mill against your average Protoss (according to the DT saga).

Which is a biased source, actually, given that Zamara is arrogant. Ghosts are like terran high templar; the cream of the crop when it comes to psychic terrans (compared to, say, wranglers). Which of course means that (as terrans are weaker psychics) a ghost is no match for a high templar (except for random freaks like Nova, possibly) but maybe a ghost has more power than a zealot. Or not. There's no easy comparison because both rely heavily on technology.

We know Terran technology is inferior to Protoss technology.

Generally yes. However, terrans put so much focus in combat technology; picture a siege tank compared to a reaver.

A zealot could probably beat a ghost in a mind battle.

I doubt it. What psionic offense does a zealot have? What psionic offense does a ghost have? None. They can read each others' minds, and that's about it. There wouldn't be a mental battle. There's a reason the zealot and the ghost both have weapons.

What do ghosts actually have that allow them to effectively take on missions against the Toss?

Cloaking. Guns. And from StarCraft: Ghost, a variety of explosives. Use a marine and siege tank attack on one side of the base to distract the protoss, sneak in, use some BE3 sticky grenades, and blow up their pylons.

And how come they're not psionically detected by nearby Protoss?

And why can't ghosts sense dark templar? Ghosts detecting each other only appeared once in lore, although there have been several instances of psychics detecting each other. According to Arcturus Mengsk himself, a hydralisk can "sniff out" a ghost at very short range, about the same range they could detect them psionically. I get the impression that none of the species are attuned to each other, which lets a ghost sneak up on Muadun. (The flower did detect him, but only at very close range.) Basically, the Energy Radar ability, but at much shorter range; you know they're there (you can see the dot on the mini-map) but that's not good enough to target your opponent.

IIRC Ghosts find each other very easy to read, do they have some way of hiding themselves?

Yes, but only at range. When Kerrigan fought that other ghost, even though she could "detect his presence" using psionics, she still had to use a make-shift detector to actually fight him.

Also, it seems like the gaps between each number on the psi index are huge.
Seeing as how Nova is PI 10 and has the ability (even though it was activated by grief) blow up an entire block and kill hundreds of people, which I doubt your average Zealot can do.

I HATE THAT F**KING SCENE. It's so eye-catching that it causes people to forget what Nova's actual capabilities are. That was a once in a lifetime event caused by family betrayal. ARRRGHH!

When Nova kills Cliff Nadaner's movement in the epilogue, that is a true measure of Nova's power. She can kill a dozen people at once while leaving someone alive telepathically (yes, melting brains is telepathic) and can barely lift herself in a combat situation. That is miles away from blowing up a city block, k?

Also, telekinesis, PI 8 or higher, do Zealots possess telekinesis? Why not pick up Zerglings and fling them towards yourself to slice it in half?

1) Being PI 8 doesn't necessarily mean you're telekinetic. It means you might have telekinesis.

2) The scale is for terrans only anyway. Even if protoss can be put on the scale (eg we measured Tassadar as a 15) that doesn't mean the rules are the same. A lower PI protoss might have telekinesis, maybe. Or maybe telekinesis is really rare among protoss, though given Artanis' brain scan in the Brood War loading screen, it seems that all protoss have the potential to be telekinetic. Please don't assume that makes the typical protoss a PI 8, as I said before, the rules may be different.

3) Zealots have only minimal psionic training. I doubt most zealots have anything like telekinesis or any other "external" ability, which is still, of course, far more psychic ability than the typical terran has (which is to say none).

I'm curious as to the kinds of ranges between Terran psionics and general Toss psionics.

We know high templars are way out of league and probably would rank over 9000 so let's not include them in this discussion.

However, if your average ghost is around a PI of 5-7, would that make most Zealots a PI of 7? 7.5? We've no evidence suggesting they possess telekinesis.

The typical ghost is PI 5-6. Pretty much every important ghost in the setting has a higher PI though, which makes them seem more powerful than they really should be, even the "weak" Devon Starke. I think Gabriel Tosh might be the only ghost we've got a good look at who has a normal power level, and we don't really know anything about him yet.

As for zealots having a PI of less than PI 8, as said before, the rules might be different (and PI 8 doesn't automatically mean you're telekinetic). If the typical zealot had a PI of 9 (they don't, trust me on this) they might still not have telekinesis.

Do you think Zamara has ever encountered a ghost? Zealots don't need to have any more psionic power than a ghost. This is still dangerous; picture an army of (non-cloaking) ghosts. Thing is, our info on protoss is pretty limited and we do not know the typical power of a zealot. The only opportunity we had (Do No Harm) we weren't given a protoss PI, and the only protoss who were present were khalai (low PI, presumably) and a high templar (much higher than average PI, given how conductive his nerve cords were).

We were given no real info on them in Shadow of the Xel'Naga or Queen of Blades (despite so many opportunities, especially in the relatively better Queen of Blades) so we only had the Dark Templar Saga which, to be frank, was written by an author whose amazing degree of writing skill exceeded her knowledge of the setting. (Evidence: How could such a powerful ghost as Devon Starke be considered "useless" by Arcturus Mengsk?)

Frontline has actually given a bit more info; we were told Khastiana was a 5th-level Khala adept, but the scale probably isn't the same as a PI scale (she's clearly more powerful than the typical zealot, and is clearly more powerful than a ghost).

Have you ever seen Babylon 5? They have a P-scale that's basically the same (but it goes up to 12). They even have a PI 8 = telekinesis thing, only there it's P10. One of the most powerful psychics in the setting is Alfred Bester, P12 and jerkass villain. He does not have telekinesis, as that's uncommon, even for a P12. He is, however, an expert shot.

[Gradius]

That's the main irony of Ghosts, they're soldiers valued for their telepathy despite the fact that they don't use it in combat. :P

I think I remember reading something about them being able to scramble or intercept orders from Protoss (it might have been from Shadow of the Xel'Naga, but don't quote me on this).

Also, telekinesis, PI 8 or higher, do Zealots possess telekinesis? Why not pick up Zerglings and fling them towards yourself to slice it in half?

Possibly. Kerrigan had very powerful telekinetic abilities (she could stop bullets right in their path), but it was still easier for her to slice up the opponents she could reach. I assume a Zealot wouldn't waste his time on telekinesis when it's easier just to gut the enemy with a Psi Blade.

Zealots would probably be closer to PI 4, although they might well be higher if they weren't constantly maintaining their shield.

No way Zealots are that weak. That would make them no more powerful than wranglers, and shields are maintained mechanically. Most ghosts fall into the range of PI 5 or 6, and Zealots are supposed to be better than most ghosts (supposedly).

So far we know that it takes a PI of somewhere less than 7.5 to create Psi Blades. I want to say that Gestalt Zero's khalai-grade version was a PI 6. And I want to say that most Zealots are ~6-7. But that's just guesswork. :P

[Kacaier]

I believe Zealots put their psionics more into martial practices such increasing their strength and speed, rather than fancy tricks that are more attributed to the greater High Templars. And as Gradius stated, while it is through conducive technology, psionic blades require the use of psionic ability.

The StarCraft 2 site:

All protoss have some psionic power. Zealots focus their powers exclusively on the pursuit of war. Focus crystals in their heavy forearm units enable zealots to channel their strength of will into blades of pure psionic energy - their primary melee weapons. Using a limited form of precognition, zealots can even predict enemy movements, striking with deadly accuracy and dodging attacks by inches.

Some zealots have even developed the ability to turn their body into pure energy for a few microseconds. This allows them to move at lightning-fast speeds and strike suddenly against an enemy that thinks they are out of range.

From a superficial glance, one would assume Ghosts appear more powerful than a run-in-the-mill Protoss. But it just goes to show that psionic potential is more than just mind-reading and telekinesis.

[Pandonetho]

Ah, thanks for the insight Kimera, as always.

I think Zealots and Ghosts are probably analogous to Samurais and Ninjas.
A Zealot trains hard and focuses on war, battle, fighting skills etc. If a ghost confronted a Zealot, he would be less bulky (and not 3 meters tall) with slimmer armour and more agility/flexibility which a Zealot wouldn't have.

That's the main irony of Ghosts, they're soldiers valued for their telepathy despite the fact that they don't use it in combat. :P

I could just be having illusions here, but don't ghosts use their psionic powers as well to power their (this is what I'm not sure about, muscle fiber suits or something, which augment their strength?) and to utilize their physical and cloaking capabilities.

Also, after some thought, I've come to the conclusion that while Zealots have the potential to become high templar (I mean, psionics doesn't just magically increase right? And every high templar started off as a noob before), they're so focused in the art of war that yeah, as some of you said, they don't hone in their psionic skills.

A Zealot has to be way higher than a PI 10, unless psionics develop (and increase) when undergoing training or something. Maybe I missed something and high templars are chosen to become high templars because of their especially high PI.

Possibly. Kerrigan had very powerful telekinetic abilities (she could stop bullets right in their path), but it was still easier for her to slice up the opponents she could reach. I assume a Zealot wouldn't waste his time on telekinesis when it's easier just to gut the enemy with a Psi Blade.

I bet high templars do this as well. Maybe they can stop a tank shell from landing? lol

So far we know that it takes a PI of somewhere less than 7.5 to create Psi Blades. I want to say that Gestalt Zero's khalai-grade version was a PI 6. And I want to say that most Zealots are ~6-7. But that's just guesswork.

What was Gestalt Zero's original PI?

lol, imagine, a Ghost with a PI of 10 affected by Terrazine gas THEN undergoing the process that Gestalt Zero underwent. That would be so IMBA it wouldn't even be funny.
Then he gets infested (like Kerrigan) and he'd rule the universe... although, the nerve cords might protect him from being infested but I'm not sure.

Anyway, now to reply back to some of what Kimera's massive post says...

Which is a biased source, actually, given that Zamara is arrogant. Ghosts are like terran high templar; the cream of the crop when it comes to psychic terrans (compared to, say, wranglers). Which of course means that (as terrans are weaker psychics) a ghost is no match for a high templar (except for random freaks like Nova, possibly) but maybe a ghost has more power than a zealot. Or not. There's no easy comparison because both rely heavily on technology.

I agree with this.

Generally yes. However, terrans put so much focus in combat technology; picture a siege tank compared to a reaver.

Yes, but the reaver was never meant to be a weapon, it was hastily thrown together (and quite effectively too) to be a weapon when war was upon the Protoss. The Terrans were always constantly at war with each other already so they've been designing weapons like mad.

I HATE THAT F**KING SCENE. It's so eye-catching that it causes people to forget what Nova's actual capabilities are. That was a once in a lifetime event caused by family betrayal. ARRRGHH!

Hey man, it still meant that her psionics are insane.

When Nova kills Cliff Nadaner's movement in the epilogue, that is a true measure of Nova's power. She can kill a dozen people at once while leaving someone alive telepathically (yes, melting brains is telepathic) and can barely lift herself in a combat situation. That is miles away from blowing up a city block, k?

Fine.

I believe Zealots put their psionics more into martial practices such increasing their strength and speed, rather than fancy tricks that are more attributed to the greater High Templars. And as Gradius stated, while it is through conducive technology, psionic blades require the use of psionic ability.

Hm, what was the stated minimum requirement again for summoning psi blades?
All Zealots must be at least that PI. Although, as Kimera said, the scale was meant for Terrans and for all we know, both species use psionics completely differently with some similarities.

From a superficial glance, one would assume Ghosts appear more powerful than a run-in-the-mill Protoss. But it just goes to show that psionic potential is more than just mind-reading and telekinesis.

Agreed.

[XSOLDIER]

Alright, so we all know that your average ghost is run of the mill against your average Protoss (according to the DT saga).

Agreed.

We know Terran technology is inferior to Protoss technology.

Also Agreed.

A zealot could probably beat a ghost in a mind battle.

This is somewhat debatable as the Zealots are trained in physical combat, and use their psi-abilities to use their psiblades, whereas the Templar are the ones that actually use their mental abilities directly for combat. Differences in their brians might also make a difference, but I think that the Ghost would be better trained, where the Protoss would be more prepared to that sort of assault.

What do ghosts actually have that allow them to effectively take on missions against the Toss?
And how come they're not psionically detected by nearby Protoss?
IIRC Ghosts find each other very easy to read, do they have some way of hiding themselves?

Nova talks a little bit about hiding thoughts, as does Frontline Volume 3. Not to mention combat possible use of Psi-screens. This might also explain WHY they'd be effective against the Protoss, as the might be able to mask their presence, whereas normal humans would be more detectable mentally. That in addition to their elite combat training & suits that enhance their physical abilitites even more would make them effective against the Protoss.

Also, it seems like the gaps between each number on the psi index are huge.
Seeing as how Nova is PI 10 and has the ability (even though it was activated by grief) blow up an entire block and kill hundreds of people, which I doubt your average Zealot can do.

Also, telekinesis, PI 8 or higher, do Zealots possess telekinesis? Why not pick up Zerglings and fling them towards yourself to slice it in half?

Again - I think it's the difference between Templar & Zealot training. Also while a Terran with a PI of 8 could have telekinesis, a Protoss of the same PI has a different brain configuration & may not be telekinetic. (I'll post some more if I've got more time)


X

[Kimera757]

That's the main irony of Ghosts, they're soldiers valued for their telepathy despite the fact that they don't use it in combat. :P

Ghosts are valued for their psionic abilities more than telepathy. In fact, Confederate ghosts used to have their mind-reading powers limited by technology.

I think I remember reading something about them being able to scramble or intercept orders from Protoss (it might have been from Shadow of the Xel'Naga, but don't quote me on this).

Um... what?

Possibly. Kerrigan had very powerful telekinetic abilities (she could stop bullets right in their path), but it was still easier for her to slice up the opponents she could reach. I assume a Zealot wouldn't waste his time on telekinesis when it's easier just to gut the enemy with a Psi Blade.

Queen of Blades is a crappy source.

First of all, Infested Kerrigan was a stronger psychic than Sarah Kerrigan, even before she broke the ghost conditioning. Sarah Kerrigan's most badass psychic moment involved throwing someone against a wall and then exploding their brain. Second of all, in that book, Raynor is capable of deciding entire battles by shooting a scourge.

Pre-infested Kerrigan was never that powerful, and I suspect Infested Kerrigan didn't use more psionic abilities in that book due to a chronic author desire to avoid portraying psionic storm or anything similar to that.

So far we know that it takes a PI of somewhere less than 7.5 to create Psi Blades. I want to say that Gestalt Zero's khalai-grade version was a PI 6. And I want to say that most Zealots are ~6-7. But that's just guesswork. :P

Nowhere does it say that psi-blades have a minimum PI rating (though they probably do). Still, they're designed to be used by protoss who are connected to the Khala*, which is something terrans can't do (except for Jake Ramsey, but he had a protoss in his head). I suspect Zero's psionic blade had to be different in some manner, and he only needed to power one anyway.

*Pylons power protoss tech at a distance (hence the psi = supply bit).

I could just be having illusions here, but don't ghosts use their psionic powers as well to power their (this is what I'm not sure about, muscle fiber suits or something, which augment their strength?) and to utilize their physical and cloaking capabilities.

That's all tech-based, however, so it's not a true measure of their power. A ghost can cloak for a time with technology. A Dark Templar can cloak all the time. Big difference there.

Also, after some thought, I've come to the conclusion that while Zealots have the potential to become high templar (I mean, psionics doesn't just magically increase right? And every high templar started off as a noob before)

Why not?

Colin Phash increased his psionic power. Nova learned to kill people with her mind faster. And protoss don't have to follow the same rules as high templar.

A Zealot has to be way higher than a PI 10, unless psionics develop (and increase) when undergoing training or something.

See above. And no, I strongly disagree that a zealot is anything like a PI 10. They've never demonstrated that kind of ability. Even Khastiana, who was more powerful psionically than most zealots, never demonstrated anything like that.

Maybe I missed something and high templars are chosen to become high templars because of their especially high PI.

A zealot with a really high PI becoming a high templar... while that's not said so anywhere directly, that's very plausible.

What was Gestalt Zero's original PI?

We were never told, but it's probably the same as a typical ghost's.

lol, imagine, a Ghost with a PI of 10 affected by Terrazine gas THEN undergoing the process that Gestalt Zero underwent. That would be so IMBA it wouldn't even be funny.

That would be such a badass villain, the Ulrezaj of the terrans!

Then he gets infested (like Kerrigan) and he'd rule the universe... although, the nerve cords might protect him from being infested but I'm not sure.

The Khala protects from infestation, so he could be infested, but why would Kerrigan want a rival like that?

Anyway, now to reply back to some of what Kimera's massive post says...

Yes, but the reaver was never meant to be a weapon, it was hastily thrown together (and quite effectively too) to be a weapon when war was upon the Protoss. The Terrans were always constantly at war with each other already so they've been designing weapons like mad.

I still think siege tanks > colossi.

Hey man, it still meant that her psionics are insane.

Bah! Dark Templar can generate uncontrolled psionic storms that are mega powerful, and no one ever uses that as part of an experiment. I thought we were talking about powers that are useful in war (eg can be controlled, can be used more than once, etc).

Hm, what was the stated minimum requirement again for summoning psi blades?

We were never given one, and it's bound to be different between a protoss and a terran anyway.

This is somewhat debatable as the Zealots are trained in physical combat, and use their psi-abilities to use their psiblades, whereas the Templar are the ones that actually use their mental abilities directly for combat. Differences in their brians might also make a difference, but I think that the Ghost would be better trained, where the Protoss would be more prepared to that sort of assault.

As stated earlier, irrelevant. Neither are taught mental combat, with exceptions (eg Nova, Colin Phash, etc).

Nova talks a little bit about hiding thoughts, as does Frontline Volume 3. Not to mention combat possible use of Psi-screens. This might also explain WHY they'd be effective against the Protoss, as the might be able to mask their presence, whereas normal humans would be more detectable mentally. That in addition to their elite combat training & suits that enhance their physical abilitites even more would make them effective against the Protoss.

Nova and Colin Phash are both above-average psychics, and Randall (someone who knows about telepaths) was surprised at Phash's ability. As for the protoss, if they follow the Khala, they find it difficult to hide thoughts, though I doubt it's impossible. Dark Templar, needless to say, have no trouble with this.

[Pandonetho]

Why not?

Colin Phash increased his psionic power. Nova learned to kill people with her mind faster. And protoss don't have to follow the same rules as high templar.

That would mean that with training, your PI goes up then.

[Kimera757]

That would mean that with training, your PI goes up then.

It could for some people. Also, the PI scale probably has a bit of leeway; perhaps you can raise your PI from PI 5.5 to PI 6 with training, but there's a "talent cap" that varies among individuals. (Babylon 5 is a much better developed setting and they had something like this; raising yourself to P5 was so hard about half of telepaths who tried burned out, and those who reached P5-6 couldn't get to P12 anyway, as they lacked the genetic talent for that.)

Nova went from being empathic (probably less than PI 3) to PI 10 in a matter of days, and that was without training.