Kerrigan and Zeratul's Encounter: Method Behind Madness?

[Louis]

The whole "Kerrigan being un-infested" opens up a can of worms.

If she really is uninfested and proceeds to regain control over the Zerg and eventually defeat the Dark Voice, how can they realistically justify Kerrigan being more powerful than she was in her infested form?

Magic rocks obviously, they've always been Blizzards favourite standby.

If they infest her again, are they going to make a contrived notion of infestation where there's no psychosis to justify it? More importantly, wouldn't the reinfestation of Kerrigan make the story of WoL definitively moot? We're discussing whether or not WoL was ultimately about bringing down Mengsk or saving/un-infesting Kerrigan. Since there was hardly a resolution with the former we have to assume the latter. If the latter is undone in HotS, what will WoL's contribution be to the trilogy?

Let me respond to your question with a question of my own. I wasn't at all into SC at the time of BW so I have no idea how opinions have changed since then, but as the fanbase stands now it seems that you all found BW to be satisfying in spite of the majority of the campaign been redundant and aimless. Blizzard gave the characters some development, but the rest of it basically ended exactly where it began. Is it not a just a touch hypocritcal to be perfectly happy with the way BW was only to complain if SCII ends up been equally moot?

Edit: don't get me wrong, I think we're on the same side here. I was one of the people (probably in the minority) who was disappointed by how unprogressive BW was. I liked Kerrigans deinfestation for it's potential plot and character development and I don't want Blizzard to screw it up by reinfestation.

[Turalyon]

Magic rocks obviously, they've always been Blizzards favourite standby.

Oh, Louis. You rascal!

Blizzard gave the characters some development, but the rest of it basically ended exactly where it began. Is it not a just a touch hypocritcal to be perfectly happy with the way BW was only to complain if SCII ends up been equally moot?

Hey! Don't lump me into those people who think BW was all "holy and mighty". Never have I said or implied this. It definitely had it's problems (I totally agree with FanaticTemplars continuing critique of it) in it's execution but as you rightly said "Blizzard gave the characters some development". This is my main beef with SC2 - there is no real character development from the main character which has not already been explored before.

We know Raynor feels guilty about the whole Kerrigan-Mengsk thing and being down-and-out, but he picks himself up and fights the good fight in SC1 (culminating in helping the toss face the Overmind). SC2 is a retread of this same idea but unnecessarily lengthened and under different circumstances.

My original question is justified. BW was somewhat of a self-contained exercise which cancelled most (see below) of itself out. This justifies it not being mentioned in SC2 for complicating its own vision. WoL, however, is supposed to be part of a single story/trilogy. It is clear that the story is dependent on future chapters because WoL as a stand-alone is somewhat unsatisfying due to its incompleteness. Therefore, each part of the trilogy is supposed to contribute something to the overall package. We can't have the second part nullify the first part because it undermine the whole notion of it as a trilogy.

Since the whole of WoL is ultimately about the de-infestation of Kerrigan, re-infesting her cancels what WoL was about. In BW, the UED came and disappeared but that was not the whole idea of the story. It was ultimately about Kerrigan gaining enough power to topple anyone who opposed her and elevate the Zerg back into a position of power. In this, she succeeded. If Kerrigan had failed, then yes indeed BW would have been totally moot.

[FanaticTemplar]

Since the whole of WoL is ultimately about the de-infestation of Kerrigan, re-infesting her cancels what WoL was about. In BW, the UED came and disappeared but that was not the whole idea of the story. It was ultimately about Kerrigan gaining enough power to topple anyone who opposed her and elevate the Zerg back into a position of power. In this, she succeeded. If Kerrigan had failed, then yes indeed BW would have been totally moot.

I agree completely. Until it was confirmed at Blizzcon, I hoped, despite the strong evidence supporting it, that Kerrigan would not be the central character of Heart of the Swarm, exactly because it detracts from the climax of Wings of Liberty.

It also makes the Xel'Naga artifact an even worse plot device. I could understand needing a magic gizmo to cure Kerrigan from the Zerg infestation, if that was the route they would have taken. But if she maintains her connection with the Zerg, then the only point was to change her alignment - to 'de-evil-ise' her. And that would have been much better accomplished by using character development and the stories of Raynor, Mengsk and Kerrigan. Until Wings of Liberty, the exact nature of Kerrigan's freedom - whether she was still free to be who she had been or whether she had been transformed physically and psychologically - was ambivalent. If this is the route they wanted to take, they could have instead swung the verdict on the side of freedom and forced a change of heart on her through character development rather than magic device.

[Louis]

Sorry, I hadn't meant to point fingers at anyone in particular, just the fans with the double standards which I already decided that you weren't. Jims lack of character development may or may not be valid depending on the choices you make. Killing Hanson and helping Tosh certainly makes him seem darker than the BW Jim BW, it even gave me the vibe that he was progressing towards someone like Arcturus which isn't something I could say for Jim of BW. As for the plot development, WoL has opened so many possibilites. I'm actually more interested in Valarian and the mysterious implications of the artifact than I'm interested in Jim and Sarahs characters.

Until Wings of Liberty, the exact nature of Kerrigan's freedom - whether she was still free to be who she had been or whether she had been transformed physically and psychologically - was ambivalent.

If you say so. She was a slave of the overmind before it was killed. She apparantly had a sense of sadism and wasn't bothered by collatoral damage and casualties which probably came from the zerg part of her, but if she were truly Zerg and truely evil she'd use her position to exterminate the universe, but instead she got sad and wanted to hide on Tarsonis but that simply wasn't an option if the UED had anything to say about it. So it was fairly clear if you ask me. The artifacts and Valarian are the only things which I'm unsure of.

[pure.Wasted]

I'm actually more interested in Valarian and the mysterious implications of the artifact than I'm interested in Jim and Sarahs characters.

I'm tempted to say you might be speaking for a good majority of old-school SC fans. Not the newer ones, probably, since they don't realize that WOL was in many respects a "Previously on StarCraft," but for those who've been looking for completely new things to sink our teeth into for a dozen years, an interesting new character with lots of influence who has an interest in the main plot AND has a unique relationship to Mengsk and, now, Raynor and Kerrigan? Uh... hell yeah?

Despite agreeing with much of FanaticTemplar's critique of BW, I'm one of those people who enjoyed it tremendously. It is not without faults, and when I say "enjoyed it tremendously," you must realize that the standards to which I hold it are naturally going to be lower than the standards to which I hold WOL, because I'm not willing to overlook the context of 12 years' difference.

Despite all of the things BW got wrong, it still managed to get a surprising amount right... many of which aren't actually present in WOL. You'd expect a sequel 12 years in the making to improve on every single quality of the original, and yet... BW offers us character development for Aldaris, Kerrigan, and DuGalle. Which characters develop in WOL? It introduces the intriguing Duran, who gets a ton more screentime than his WOL counterpart, Valerian. Even its "filler" plot of the UED's invasion, viewed through the perspective of Kerrigan's ascendance, isn't filler at all; it is exactly what she needed, and no other Galaxy Roaming Force of Distress could have taken their role because no other Galaxy Roaming Force of Distress could have been so ably manipulated (in front of us, allowing us to appreciate the manipulation) by Duran. As for WOL -- the Tosh, Hanson, and Matt storylines are total filler (albeit hugely entertaining in parts). If you skip all of them in their entirety, you won't have missed a single beat in the story.

It's all about context.

If you say so. She was a slave of the overmind before it was killed. She apparantly had a sense of sadism and wasn't bothered by collatoral damage and casualties which probably came from the zerg part of her, but if she were truly Zerg and truely evil she'd use her position to exterminate the universe, but instead she got sad and wanted to hide on Tarsonis but that simply wasn't an option if the UED had anything to say about it. So it was fairly clear if you ask me.

You assume that 'Zerg' and 'evil' are synonymous. Even without WOL's dubious retcons, I could tell you that's not entirely right. The Zerg are like the Borg. They don't think about life in terms of "something to destroy," they think in terms of "something to assimilate." They aren't doing wrong, they're doing the most right that anyone could ever do. So they're neither evil nor interested in "exterminating the universe."

Second, just to clarify: are you saying you believed Kerrigan in BW to have been free?

edited to be less of a dick. I need some coffee.

[Louis]

Despite agreeing with much of FanaticTemplar's critique of BW, I'm one of those people who enjoyed it tremendously.

So did I.

Which characters develop in WOL?

Tychus when he pulled the trigger, the overmind cause Jesus Tassadar says so.

It introduces the intriguing Duran, who gets a ton more screentime than his WOL counterpart, Valerian.

Yes, well there was definitely a lot of information crammed into what little screen time Valarian had and approximately another 50 to 60 missions which he can dig into in a few years.

As for WOL -- the Tosh, Hanson, and Matt storylines are total filler

You say that now and I agree. None of them are dead ends however, and I hope Blizzard change their minds about making them irrelevant.

You assume that 'Zerg' and 'evil' are synonymous.

They invaded 3/4 of the confederacy, occupied Aiur, and devestated Shakuras. Why should it matter whether it was just an incidental thing that they did when they'd hunt everyone to extinction if it could benefit the swarm? It's close enough to evil for me.

Second, just to clarify: are you saying you believed Kerrigan in BW to have been free?

Free from the mental control of the Zerg? Yes. The Overmind basically said she was its slave, and it's the reason she gave to helping the protoss upon meeting Zeratul on Shakuras. It could be unreliable information, but I don't see any opther literal interpretations, do you?

[pure.Wasted]

Tychus when he pulled the trigger, the overmind cause Jesus Tassadar says so.

There is an important difference between character development and character revealment. The Overmind DEFINITELY falls into the latter category -- it didn't grow as a character, it is simply that our earlier perceptions of it turn out to be incorrect. If we were to give WOL points for the Overmind, we'd have to give BW points for Raszagal and Duran on top of the ones already listed.

As for Tychus... did he develop? As early as Queen of Blades he suggests that he thinks Kerrigan ought to be killed, and Queen of Blades itself doesn't exactly portray that moment as a turning point for the character. There's no reason to believe Tychus wouldn't have arrived at the same decision five years earlier. Furthermore, he warns Jim that he thinks Kerrigan should die during... Supernova, was it? One of the latter missions. They nearly get into a skerkuffle over it. I'm not convinced Tychus grew as a character over the course of the campaign, and if he did, I think the non-linearity and lack of focus on Tychus's true agenda do a great job of obscuring that, unfortunately.

Yes, well there was definitely a lot of information crammed into what little screen time Valarian had and approximately another 50 to 60 missions which he can dig into in a few years.

I don't disagree here. There's TONS of potential for Valerian, and I'm sure Blizz will make the attempt to capitalize on at least a good chunk of it. But for the moment we're comparing BW to WOL, so I thought it fair to mention that Valerian didn't exactly... suffer from over-exposure.

Free from the mental control of the Zerg? Yes. The Overmind basically said she was its slave, and it's the reason she gave to helping the protoss upon meeting Zeratul on Shakuras. It could be unreliable information, but I don't see any opther literal interpretations, do you?

The reason I was confused is that in an earlier post you seemed to suggest that making Kerrigan "a slave all along" was NOT a re-interpretation of the character in WOL.

[Louis]

All I see in the earlier post is a difference in interpretation. The UED wanted to enslave the overmind, which by proxy meant Kerrigan. So she had to go to extremes to do something about it. Or she could let the UED win. A choice between freedom and slavery is not a choice at all, and as Tosh would say "choice be the one true freedom anyone has". She wasn't a slave in the literal sense as in lacking free will, she was a slave in the sense of a lack of decent alternative choices. I don't remember much about the QA session, so I'm not sure if this interpretation could fit into what was said at the lore panel, and come to think of it, it probably doesn't given the context of "don't give up Jim". Well, all I can do is hope for the best.

I don't disagree here. There's TONS of potential for Valerian, and I'm sure Blizz will make the attempt to capitalize on at least a good chunk of it. But for the moment we're comparing BW to WOL, so I thought it fair to mention that Valerian didn't exactly... suffer from over-exposure.

[pure.Wasted]

All I see in the earlier post is a difference in interpretation. The UED wanted to enslave the overmind, which by proxy meant Kerrigan. So she had to go to extremes to do something about it. Or she could let the UED win. A choice between freedom and slavery is not a choice at all, and as Tosh would say "choice be the one true freedom anyone has". She wasn't a slave in the literal sense as in lacking free will, she was a slave in the sense of a lack of decent alternative choices.

Misunderstanding, then. Good to know.

Really? I can describe him as ambitious, ruthless, cunning, over-confident, shady, treacherous and manipulative. That's an impressive amount of character building for one who had so much less stage time than Duran.

That is an impressive array... but a few of those are quite synonymous. Anyway, if you're saying that Valerian is a more interesting character in the traditional sense, (as opposed to Duran 'simply' being entertaining and mysterious) you make a strong case and I have to agree. It helps that he's essentially human, and so has understandable and recognizable motivations, desires, and quirks, whereas Duran is not and does not.

But my rationale in comparing the two was to suggest that BW did a better job of weaving its "filler" plot together with the stuff that mattered, Duran being one of the central links between the two. Mengsk Sr. didn't really serve as an effective link between the filler Colonist/Spectre/Rebellion plotlines and the main arc simply because he didn't have nearly enough presence, and Mengsk Jr. was used sparingly and not for that purpose...

[Turalyon]

It also makes the Xel'Naga artifact an even worse plot device. I could understand needing a magic gizmo to cure Kerrigan from the Zerg infestation, if that was the route they would have taken. But if she maintains her connection with the Zerg, then the only point was to change her alignment - to 'de-evil-ise' her. And that would have been much better accomplished by using character development and the stories of Raynor, Mengsk and Kerrigan. Until Wings of Liberty, the exact nature of Kerrigan's freedom - whether she was still free to be who she had been or whether she had been transformed physically and psychologically - was ambivalent. If this is the route they wanted to take, they could have instead swung the verdict on the side of freedom and forced a change of heart on her through character development rather than magic device.

I share your concern about this magical change to Kerrigan. I have somewhat mixed feelings about it. If the artifact de-evilised her/removed her QoB persona, it cheapens her redemption arc (if this is what Blizz is aiming for) because Kerrigan cannot be fully held responsible for her atrocities. It would also make Kerrigan's character as a whole, a black-and-white caricature.

Then again, if she is still evil, it makes the whole affair with the artifact gathering and the idea of 'saving Kerrigan' pointless. Although this devalues the whole point of WoL there is some traction to this option. In some ways, if she stays evil you might still get your redemption through proper character development or the machinations of a villain who has lost most of her power (as opposed to when she had power to carry out her whims while infested).

Do NOT get me wrong here. There is nothing inherently wrong with de-infesting Kerrigan. Indeed, it opens up things quite considerably and it will be interesting to see where they take it because there would be plenty of character development opportunities for how others will react to her change and to see what her 'change' actually entails.