Kerrigan and Zeratul's Encounter: Method Behind Madness?

[Kimera757]

They've done that before?

Thor.

An unnecessary risk - the Overmind was invulnerable up to the point he decided to manifest himself. This should ring alarm bells in its "programming" as you'd think the "programming" would also have a sense of self-preservation. How else would you expect the "programming" to fulfill its function?

After the creation of the hybrid, the zerg were supposed to get killed off. This would have resulted in the Overmind's destruction somehow. (We don't know what would have happened if it weren't for Kerrigan's creation and Tassadar's victory, since the vision we saw assumed that Kerrigan was created and the Overmind died.)

Your description of the Overmind's true motivation is flitting back and forth between those notions I described above. It's still very confusing because when I go back to play Sc1, I don't know whether some parts are the programming or the 'real' Overmind that's "talking" to me.

I don't see the confusion, I think I'm just not explaining it properly.

It's like you're talking to a deep cover agent within an organization that has bugs all over the place. You don't know he's a mole. He's giving you orders that will eventually result in the company being destroyed, but he can't tell you obvious stuff (due to the bugs, and because you're loyal to the organization). He just says do something that sounds plausible, but is part of a hidden plan to destroy the organization.

An example might be to bring in computers to heighten efficiency; the mole knows these computers are vulnerable to a specific virus that's been created outside. Then he says to hire a computer expert to defend these computers. You admit he's a hacker, but that just means he knows more about computer security. "You" follow his orders and hire the hacker, not knowing that this guy actually opposes your goals. (Or maybe he's hired as a fall guy, for when the real outside hacker messes stuff up. Etc.)

Now picture the organization as being the Overmind's programming. Everything the Overmind says and does has to make sense to the programming and to the cerebrates.

One last thing, I also don't understand your concept of "(much) free will". It's like saying someone is partially intelligent, partially sad, partially fat, partially pregnant etc. You either are something, something else entirely or are not at all. Tassadar explicitly says the Overmind has no free will - so all these suggestions about the Overmind making these decisions you've described to fool its programming is somewhat contradictory

Have you played Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos? In that game the Lich King is a slave to the Burning Legion. As a result, it can't directly oppose the Legion. And yet (like the Overmind) it has control over a powerful organization (the Scourge) and can even recruit outside agents (Arthas, like Kerrigan).

The Lich King used Arthas to simultaneously weaken the Legion (kill Mal'Ganis) and help the Legion (open a portal to summon Archimonde). It even has a cover story for how Mal'Ganis died if that ever comes up - "sorry, I had less control over him than I thought he did; he still remembered his hatred of Mal'Ganis when he was alive). As a result, it's actions seem (to the player) contradictory, but in the end (the end of The Frozen Throne) it all makes sense.

Now how can the Lich King have done this without any free will? Obviously it's capable of thinking for itself, and not having its mind constantly read. How can the Overmind plan its own death or come up with "fake" reasons for doing things without at least some free will?

This is speculation

Of course it's speculation. We're discussing lore, not reciting the text of Wings of Liberty. Where are we given every detail of the programming? We are not, so we're left with speculation.

[Norfindel]

I remember the Overmind wanting to assimilate the Protoss to make the perfect lifeform. That's how the Zerg function, and their ultimate role.

It seems like they added the idea of the Overmind being programmed to allow for the Zerg to be freed without trying to assimilate the Protoss over and over again, but aren't the Zerg going to be in LotV and possible future games anyways? Wouldn't you need an excuse to fight against them? I bet that some of the Zerg are going to try to do that, and some of them not, but you could as well just say that at the start, before the Overmind was created, not all the Zerg where willing to leave Zerus to became the ultimate lifeform, but when fused, the will of the majority prevailed. Simpler, easier.

[Turalyon]

I remember the Overmind wanting to assimilate the Protoss to make the perfect lifeform. That's how the Zerg function, and their ultimate role.

Can't agree more. Becoming the strongest species through assimilation of others is the ultimate goal of the Zerg species as a whole, even before the Overmind existed. The Overmind is supposed to be a representation of this ideal - it is the will of nature personified, not some construct that is the plaything of gods as WoL is trying to make it.

Now picture the organization as being the Overmind's programming. Everything the Overmind says and does has to make sense to the programming and to the cerebrates.

Your example is a nice way of putting it but it does jar considerably with Tassadar's explanation of the Overmind's plight especially when he says "all-consuming directive", "single over-riding purpose", "not free will" and "prison of the mind".

This implies the Overmind is not even capable of formulating a plan to free itself let alone enact it even if it's "disguised" as what the programming wants. The merest thought of rebellion is enough for this programming/directive/purpose to kick in and subvert it.

How can the Overmind plan its own death or come up with "fake" reasons for doing things without at least some free will?

Good question. It cannot do anything without free will period so therefore the Overmind has free will. But this is against what Tassadar is telling us... then again, what he says is not true either because the Overmind apparently has a wishy-washy version of free will (this makes much more sense now ). You can't just take parts of what is said and reinterpret it.

I have played War3. The Lich King/ Ner'Zhul always had free will from the start even when he was finally captured in the Twisting Nether after fleeing Draenor, tortured and mind warped from the power that Kil'Jaeden gave him. He always had that seed in him to rebel. It was always stated that he wanted to free himself from the Legion. His acceptance for "helping" the Legion invade Azeroth was just a means of escape from them, not a mindless minion to do the Legions bidding. All his actions were ultimately purposed against the Legion.

The Overmind, however, is completely different. There are no hints at all that there is any hint of rebellion in it (against it's agenda or anything else). All we see in Sc1 is what we now know as its programming. The depiction of the Overmind based on WoLs revision of Sc1 is that it was a total slave (no free will period!) from the start and never anything else (people even speculate that the Overmind's slaughter of the Xel'Naga was the DVs influence). The notion of the Overmind being a total slave is a logical fit (disregarding personal preference) to the story but what does not, is that it was secretly rebelling the whole time.

[Kimera757]

Your example is a nice way of putting it but it does jar considerably with Tassadar's explanation of the Overmind's plight especially when he says "all-consuming directive", "single over-riding purpose", "not free will" and "prison of the mind".

That's only because Tassadar contradicts himself.

This implies the Overmind is not even capable of formulating a plan to free itself let alone enact it even if it's "disguised" as what the programming wants. The merest thought of rebellion is enough for this programming/directive/purpose to kick in and subvert it.

Quotes:

Tassadar: The Overmind was formed with thought and reason... but not free will. It screamed and raged within the prison of its own mind.

Zeratul: Who did this? Why?

Tassadar: I know not. But the Overmind found a way to resist its all-consuming directive. It created a chance... a hope of salvation.

Tassadar: The Queen of Blades.

Zeratul: Madness!

Tassadar: Only she can free the zerg from slavery -- and in so doing, save all that is... from the flame.

See that part in bold? You're only remembering part of what Tassadar said.

So I think my theory of "secret rebellion" is sound. It's supported by what the game text says.

[Turalyon]

That's only because Tassadar contradicts himself.

I'm trying really hard not to face-palm at what they've reduced Tassadar to. Please do not rub it in.

But the Overmind found a way to resist its all-consuming directive. It created a chance... a hope of salvation.

Thanks for highlighting the whole quote, Kimera because it actually supports the point I was trying to make in the previous post.

The first part is a clear contradiction. You cannot 'change' an 'absolute' - it's like saying "I was able to achieve the impossible". Sure, we use such 'figures of speech' to describe how difficult something was but when stated as fact, it's utterly ridiculous and fallacious!

"Oh, so maybe Tassadar is using figurative speech in that statement, then" I hear you say. I doubt this, as Tassadar repeatedly and explicitly hammers home the Overmind's complete subservience to this directive/programming: "all-consuming directive", "single over-riding purpose", "not free will" and "prison of the mind".

On a side note about figurative speech and the Protoss, I mean, sure the Protoss were known for their rhetoric in SC1 but at least it made sense and had relevance, not like this "bombast" that we're getting in WoL (Tidings of Doom, anyone?).

So, maybe Tassadar was being figurative throughout his whole speech or he's just an unreliable narrator - another pattern I see forming. They turned one reliable narrator in SC1 - the Overmind - into an unreliable one in SC2. Are they now doing this to Tassadar? I think I might face-palm after all...