Random Campaign Thoughts

[Kimera757]

Been replaying the campaign and I've had some questions:

What is up with Zeratul's injury? First off, we never saw how he got it. He climbed out of the cave no problem and fought in 3 missions after he got the injury so it couldn't have been that bad. But in the Hyperion he is still clutching his arm? What is going on here? It feels like they had a completely different storyline planned out and failed in changing it to something else - just bad production quality.

He is pure of form. An injury like that won't hurt him much, I expect. If a human breaks their arm, they can't climb. A protoss could, just with difficulty. Maybe.

Second, Kerrigan seems to know too much about the prophecy. She knows they're all going to die for example:

She was on Ulaan first. Her forces had already surrounded the prophecy bits. I suspect she used her own psionic techniques to read the prophecies, without needing preservers.

Kerrigan is also apparently powerful enough to read Zeratul's mind despite not being in proximity:
That was from the middle of the Whispers of Doom mission. But Kerrigan can't read Raynor's mind too well in the Moebius Factor mission:

And some ghosts (like the one in the Orientation short story) are terrible mind-readers. The one in the StarCraft comic was strong enough to cook someone's brain but could only barely read a character's mind. Devon Starke could mind control someone into killing themself or someone else, but because he didn't like to do it Arcturus Mengsk was going to execute him, and we're told Mengsk would execute other ghosts who couldn't do that - this in the same trilogy which said the weakest protoss was stronger than the strongest ghost. And the Brood War manual shows that mind control among the protoss is weak (subtle suggestions) and rare unless you're a dark archon, which would make Starke more powerful than the vast majority of protoss... but that has to be wrong, because Valerian knows everything about protoss, right? In any event, there is no way no how Starke could match a high templar in terms of psionic power. Blizzard is inconsistent in their portrayal of psionic power, especially mind-reading, which can break plots if used... sensibly.

Also, I noticed that in the end of In Utter Darkness, the hybrids absorb zerg & protoss, kind of like how the phoenix creature in Shadow of the Xel'Naga did. Any relation between them?

My personal theory, but I think the phoenix creatures were actually created by the Dark Voice, which I think is a renegade "evil" xel'naga. Then again, the phoenix creature in Shadow of the Xel'Naga was "sorry" it had absorbed humans, although it didn't seem to care about murdering a protoss fleet.

A phoenix creature hatched out of Nemaka's temple, on a planet that used to have life before the atmosphere was removed. (Of course, there were very few protoss and no zerg there.) Xil, holding one of these newer artifacts, had a civilization which had been wiped out.

So Raynor can't take out the Zerg with one capital ship but he can fight back the Fleet of the Executor? Wow, Blizzard hates the Protoss. :P

Are you talking about Selendis? I don't think that was the protoss' greatest effort there. They were dealing with a relatively minor infestation, and fighting against their friend.

I get the impression that he does have a fleet though. He says in Media Blitz that he "acquired" a Command Center. Is a CC bigger than a battlecruiser? He must have a fleet. I think it's his fleet that orbits New Folsom after the Breakout mission where you see all the battlecruisers.

The "pick your own order" nature of the game means you can't tell when he has a fleet and when he doesn't. He doesn't seem to have a fleet until he meets Valerian Mengsk, so if you played Breakout before then, then having a fleet at that point makes no sense. (Also, Raynor could steal a command center, but apparently couldn't transport the Odin himself. Of course, maybe he let the Dominion transport it for surprise reason. But I suspect he just steals local command centers.)

[Articorse]

He is pure of form. An injury like that won't hurt him much, I expect. If a human breaks their arm, they can't climb. A protoss could, just with difficulty. Maybe.

That seems like a cop-out. They make this characteristic 'purity of form/essence' so vague that it can be anything when they need it.

She was on Ulaan first. Her forces had already surrounded the prophecy bits. I suspect she used her own psionic techniques to read the prophecies, without needing preservers.

And how would she translate it without preservers? Zeratul knows a lot more about the Xel'Naga, not to mention he is many, many times older than she is and just knows more things in general.

Are you talking about Selendis? I don't think that was the protoss' greatest effort there. They were dealing with a relatively minor infestation, and fighting against their friend.

Lore-wise it was a single battlecruiser against numerous Carriers and a MOTHERSHIP. I know in-game motherships suck, but in the lore they're humongous death machines. Unless they purposefully sabotaged their own ships, I don't think they could've lost even if they wanted to.

[Kimera757]

That seems like a cop-out. They make this characteristic 'purity of form/essence' so vague that it can be anything when they need it.

Have it your way.

And how would she translate it without preservers? Zeratul knows a lot more about the Xel'Naga, not to mention he is many, many times older than she is and just knows more things in general.

If he knows so much, why did Kerrigan get there first? I have no doubt she found a way to interpret the prophecies.

Lore-wise it was a single battlecruiser against numerous Carriers and a MOTHERSHIP. I know in-game motherships suck, but in the lore they're humongous death machines. Unless they purposefully sabotaged their own ships, I don't think they could've lost even if they wanted to.

Vikings are very powerful AtA, and there's nothing saying the terrans couldn't have outnumbered the protoss heavily. (That's actually how you win, by ensuring local numerical superiority.)

[phazonjunkie]

Lore-wise it was a single battlecruiser against numerous Carriers and a MOTHERSHIP. I know in-game motherships suck, but in the lore they're humongous death machines. Unless they purposefully sabotaged their own ships, I don't think they could've lost even if they wanted to.

Uh...Vikings, Wraiths, hello....

Have you ever seen Independence Day? What ultimately destroyed the deathstar (both of them) Or better yet, for a real life example, what was the deciding factor in the battle of Midway in WW2? What ultimately sunk the Yamato, one of the largest, most powerful battleships of it's time? The deciding factor in all cases, large numbers of fighter planes, dive-bombers etc. (there's a good reason that the US doesn't utilize battleships/cruisers in it's navy anymore).

The same reasoning could be applied in this instance. An overwhelming number of vikings could've rendered the Protoss capital ships more of a liability.

[Articorse]

If he knows so much, why did Kerrigan get there first? I have no doubt she found a way to interpret the prophecies.

Wait, what? That's a complete non-sequitur. I have no idea how she got there first, but that's like asking a person, who won the nobel prize in physics "If you're so smart, then tell me the exact evolutionary path of the modern house cat."

One has nothing to do with the other, maybe she stumbled on it by accident, maybe she knew about it from the memories that the Zerg absorbed from the Xel'Naga, I don't know, and it doesn't matter.

And what does 'I have no doubt' even mean? You have FAITH that she can translate it? If you have some kind of proof, please share it, I'd be willing to discuss it, but that's just a conversation ender right there.

Have you ever seen Independence Day?

Yes, I have. You reaaaally think THAT movie is a good way to convince someone of your argument?

What ultimately destroyed the deathstar (both of them)

First one was the force, second one was a fucking fleet after a surgical attack on the inside crippled it.

I have no idea about the Yamato, though, so I'll give you that one. And yes, I agree that large ships can be brought down with a large enough force of smaller ships. Thing is, I kinda doubt the Protoss left with JUST the mothership and the carriers. They're not stupid, they know that you need smaller craft in large numbers to defend your heavy hitters. So the proportion should be about the same for both fleets. It's inconceivable to think that Raynor has just one Battlecruiser and enough vikings and wraiths to overcome all the air defenses of the protoss and get close enough to take down their Carriers and Mothership.

[Kimera757]

And what does 'I have no doubt' even mean? You have FAITH that she can translate it? If you have some kind of proof, please share it, I'd be willing to discuss it, but that's just a conversation ender right there.

I have no doubt because her every action showed she knew something really bad was coming. She'd already given up hope.

Infested Kerrigan: Please. Our petty conflicts mean nothing now. A storm is coming that CANNOT be stopped. Fitting - that we should face oblivion together.
Zeratul: Never!
Infested Kerrigan: FATE cannot be changed. The END comes. And when it finds me... I shall embrace it at last.

She certainly knew more about the prophecy than Zeratul did before he had it translated. Also, lots of foreknowledge.

Of course, she didn't have the benefit of Tassadar/Overmind's vision. (If she did, she wouldn't have tried to stop Zeratul from getting the prophecy, since that would result in him not killing her.)

[FanaticTemplar]

Kerrigan is also apparently powerful enough to read Zeratul's mind despite not being in proximity:
That was from the middle of the Whispers of Doom mission. But Kerrigan can't read Raynor's mind too well in the Moebius Factor mission:

I always assumed, like Eligor that Zeratul was being sarcastic. He's telling her not to presume to know what he's thinking - if she were capable of reading his thoughts, she'd know he wouldn't give up anyway.

Also, I noticed that in the end of In Utter Darkness, the hybrids absorb zerg & protoss, kind of like how the phoenix creature in Shadow of the Xel'Naga did. Any relation between them?

Don't know, but the Hybrid in Piercing the Veil also consumes any Zerg or Protoss it comes across, but not the Terrans, which it kills (including Dominion troops, so it isn't just a gameplay issue).

I also like how Raynor says this after Zero Hour:

So Raynor can't take out the Zerg with one capital ship but he can fight back the Fleet of the Executor? Wow, Blizzard hates the Protoss. :P

I choose to believe that the Protoss retreated after a skirmish not because they were defeated but because they figured the conflict was simply not worth it. I imagine that after some incredible heroics, Raynor's ragtag forces brought down the Purifier, and Selendis decided that killing Raynor - a friend and ally - was not worth the cost in ships and Protoss lives, even thought it was the inevitable conclusion of ending the battle.

I say that I choose to believe this because there's really no evidence to suggest it, but it's the only plausible reasoning I can find that doesn't involve the Protoss getting utterly humiliated.

[phazonjunkie]

I have no idea about the Yamato, though, so I'll give you that one. And yes, I agree that large ships can be brought down with a large enough force of smaller ships. Thing is, I kinda doubt the Protoss left with JUST the mothership and the carriers. They're not stupid, they know that you need smaller craft in large numbers to defend your heavy hitters. So the proportion should be about the same for both fleets. It's inconceivable to think that Raynor has just one Battlecruiser and enough vikings and wraiths to overcome all the air defenses of the protoss and get close enough to take down their Carriers and Mothership.

The goal of the mission was not to overcome the entire Protoss fleet (which I agree would've been inconceivable) but simply to disable the purifier. During the scripted event at the end of the mission, it's quite obvious that most of Selendis' fleet is intact, but with the Purifier destroyed, continuing to fight wouldn't really serve any purpose.

It could've simply been a critical oversight on the part of the Protoss. Perhaps they didn't think to bring many fighter escorts (phoenix, scout, etc) because they weren't expecting any interference.

In any case if Selendis was really dead set on 'purifying' the colonist's she probably could've simply finished of Raynor's forces and warped in another purifier, but for whatever reason simply decided not to.




Heh, I didn't notice FantasicTemplar's last paragraph in the above post.

Anyway, yeah what he said.

[Articorse]

I have no doubt because her every action showed she knew something really bad was coming. She'd already given up hope.

The point of whether or not she knew it was never in question. Of course she knew, that's more than obvious. The point is that it's completely implausable for her to know this, simply because she lacks the knowledge to translate the prophecy by herself.

The goal of the mission was not to overcome the entire Protoss fleet (which I agree would've been inconceivable) but simply to disable the purifier. During the scripted event at the end of the mission, it's quite obvious that most of Selendis' fleet is intact, but with the Purifier destroyed, continuing to fight wouldn't really serve any purpose.

It could've simply been a critical oversight on the part of the Protoss. Perhaps they didn't think to bring many fighter escorts (phoenix, scout, etc) because they weren't expecting any interference.

In any case if Selendis was really dead set on 'purifying' the colonist's she probably could've simply finished of Raynor's forces and warped in another purifier, but for whatever reason simply decided not to.

I still find this highly improbable, but seeing as how it's the only even slightly plausible scenario, I'll concede this point.

Though I think I have to point out that she shouldn't be able to just 'warp in another purifier'. That's a mothership, the absolute zenith of protoss technology. Losing one of those should be an ENORMOUS blow to the protoss. I think the whole mission would've been better if you didn't actually have to destroy it, since that, to me, seems like a REALLY big deal, not something that can be easily forgiven and forgotten. From what I've gathered in the lore, Carriers are really, really big ships and there really aren't that many of them. Losing a single carrier, if I interpret the lore correctly, is a very big blow. Now imagine losing a ship that's probably at least 10 times rarer than a carrier... Just doesn't fit with their reactions.

[Norfindel]

• The Protoss wouldn't take a whole planet down just because there are a few infested guys caged.
• They wouldn't be so stupid as to lose a Mothership. They would simply let Raynor do whatever he wants with the planet, and return in full force, if they need to.
• I don't really think that Executors would go around there without heavy support.
• It isn't ok for the Protoss to lose Motherships, Carriers, and people because they aren't fighting seriously. They cannot afford it.

Writed in a matter of minutes

It's good. Much better than what happened in the game, which is as unveliabable as it can.
I would had simply open a communication link and explain, but that's not what i would call an action scene