Metzen and his team should retire?

[Gifted]

It has nothing to do with the difference of opinion. It has everything to do with your methods of expressing it. Read Gifted's post for a better explanation.

Everytime I read a new one of your rants, a question starts nagging me and that is, "Why the hell are you even here if you hate StarCraft 2 and Blizzard so much?" You've repeatedly said that you think Activision Blizzard is an evil company unworthy of our support (yet you bought the game ) and you say that the game itself was a waste of money yet you regularly comment on it and play the MP.

Do you even actually believe what you say or are you actually just trolling?

"Actions speak louder than words"

[broodmywarcraft]

Two things. First, it is still very much unclear what role the Overmind is going to play in SC2, and to what extent they are retconning anything. Tassadar's message was very, very vague. There are ways to interpret what he said that seem to compromise the SC1 plot, and there are readings that do not compromise it. I think that jumping to conclusions prematurely when the plot strand has been left deliberately vague is not in our best interests.

Well, when you consider the manual of the original tells a different story about the Overmind and its motivations than what we got in SC2, the retcon argument has more merit.

Also, a few posts on the lore forum have brought to my attention a few ways in which this could actually bridge gaps in the SC1 narrative which, until now, were huge gaping plot-holes. Why did the Overmind take a physical form on Aiur where it would be vulnerable to attack? Maybe because it wanted to die. Why did it leave Kerrigan, raising whom it had made such a top priority, back on Char? Maybe because her importance was in outliving it and, eventually, bringing the Zerg back to their roots. Take WOL's answers (or un-answers, anyway) away, and we're stuck with a narrative which we insist on viewing through rose-colored glasses and missing the canyon-wide plot chasms.

Blizzard actually has three contradictory explanations for Kerrigan staying on Auir. In Starcraft, she stays to hunt down the remaining Protoss forces. In Queen of Blades, it attempts to explain this plot hole by stating that the Overmind wants her to come with him to Auir, but she convinces him to let her finish off the Protoss and he says that she'll join in after she's done with them. In Starcraft 2, she's considered too important to be put in harms way so the Overmind distracts everyone by landing on Auir so they'll focus on him and not her.

I'm studying writing in university so I don't see why I'd be laughing. Nothing wrong with fan fiction, either. I've written fan fiction that attempted to form a cohesive and compelling narrative out of the mess they made with Stukov, that introduced no new elements and instead created interesting ideas by re-arranging the elements that were already in play. So I know exactly where you're coming from.

That said, change isn't always a bad thing. And it isn't always a retcon, either. I suggest we give it some time.

The changing wouldn't have been AS bad had they not been so sloppy in handling of it. Queen of Blades VERY POORLY handled explaining the plot holes left by the Original Starcraft.
I've written up some fiction that FAR better handled that part of the lore, at least in not contradicting the events of the game itself.

And of course, the invention of the whole prophecy bit was just lame sauce all around. It was subpar in its writing and eye rolling in its execution.

There were a number of paths they could have taken to both continue the story and fill in the plot holes without inventing that crap, but eh, that's where GOOD fan fiction fills the void in my disappointed heart.

[Eligor]

I think that Metzen should go back to personally writing the dialogue, if not crafting the plot. You may argue about his approach to creating story arcs, but he's a much better stylist than any other writer Blizzard employed, and the fact that the dialogue in StarCraft 2 is written by someone else is strongly felt. He was the guy responsible for defining the voices and speech mannerisms of Raynor, Zeratul, Mengsk, Kerrigan... He should be the one maintaining them, any other writer would do it differently even if he's very good and attentive at maintaining a particular style, and I am not sure that can be said of Blizzard's other writers. No offense to their skills or capabilities, but it isn't felt as if they're treating such things with the attention and seriousness they deserve. They should, Fantasy writing (on the whole) is perhaps more dependent upon style than any other genre.

In general Blizzard are developing an unfortunate tendency to shoot themselves in the leg and dumb-down the potential of the story through its subservience to gameplay mehanics. For example, when "The Frozen Throne" ended, Azeroth has been an interesting place with many factions holding their own unique interests and developing shades of grey in the story, but WoW with its "Horde vs. Alliance" paradigm and the need to make each and every player the Hero (with a capital H) killed all of that reducing all characters either to quest giving NPC's or boss battles and making the complexity of the created world a superficial one. Same thing happened with SC 2's branching storylines which prevented the build up of any sustained conflict or dramatic tension, and even stood in the way of character development.

Akira Kurosawa once said that the script is the most important thing in the movie and that it "must be able to pass fire and water". I believe the same stands true for a game. Just the bare text of the dialogue should be suspensful, exciting, dramatic. Merely reading through it should be a gripping experience that makes you want to know what happens next, and every single scene should contribute to that. Optional filler can be added later without much thought or effort from the writer(s), that's the wonderful thing about it. Unfortunately the script for Wings of Liberty is 80 % optional filler, with very little revealed, or built upon or happening with any consequences. And what is either happens to be barely related to the unfolding events at hand (namely the Zeratul missions) or is served in the very last three missions and doesn't constitute much by itself to begin with (Kerrigan is de-infested, now what?). I am not inherently opposed to a branching storyline in "Heart" if they can manage to combine it with a lean, self sustaining script. If the branching missions stand in the way of that, however, they should most definitely go.

So essentially I believe that if anything, Metzen should have more direct, hands on involvement with the script and he and the other writers must think harder, and approach the task of creating an exciting and gripping plot much more diligently and seriously than they did in WoL. And they should believe in the StarCraft Universe, and think twice and thrice and four times about who the characters are and why are they the way they are and what makes them and the universe appealing to people (the last is VERY important, it's the difference between that "geeky" annoying and superficial "Cool explosions!" approach and actually thinking about what defines a character/situation/place/object both on an inner "lore level" and outer meta-narrative "audience level") and why anything happens and whether it is interesting and exciting and moves the plot forward. In short, they should put more effort into getting it right, the hardest and most important task in world-building.

[Genopath]

Metzen et all did fine on SC1 and SC2 to be honest. WoW expansions are a different story though, as Eligor adequately said.

[Gifted]

I think that Metzen should go back to personally writing the dialogue, if not crafting the plot. You may argue about his approach to creating story arcs, but he's a much better stylist than any other writer Blizzard employed, and the fact that the dialogue in StarCraft 2 is written by someone else is strongly felt. He was the guy responsible for defining the voices and speech mannerisms of Raynor, Zeratul, Mengsk, Kerrigan... He should be the one maintaining them, any other writer would do it differently even if he's very good and attentive at maintaining a particular style, and I am not sure that can be said of Blizzard's other writers. No offense to their skills or capabilities, but it isn't felt as if they're treating such things with the attention and seriousness they deserve. They should, Fantasy writing (on the whole) is perhaps more dependent upon style than any other genre.

In general Blizzard are developing an unfortunate tendency to shoot themselves in the leg and dumb-down the potential of the story through its subservience to gameplay mehanics. For example, when "The Frozen Throne" ended, Azeroth has been an interesting place with many factions holding their own unique interests and developing shades of grey in the story, but WoW with its "Horde vs. Alliance" paradigm and the need to make each and every player the Hero (with a capital H) killed all of that reducing all characters either to quest giving NPC's or boss battles and making the complexity of the created world a superficial one. Same thing happened with SC 2's branching storylines which prevented the build up of any sustained conflict or dramatic tension, and even stood in the way of character development.

Akira Kurosawa once said that the script is the most important thing in the movie and that it "must be able to pass fire and water". I believe the same stands true for a game. Just the bare text of the dialogue should be suspensful, exciting, dramatic. Merely reading through it should be a gripping experience that makes you want to know what happens next, and every single scene should contribute to that. Optional filler can be added later without much thought or effort from the writer(s), that's the wonderful thing about it. Unfortunately the script for Wings of Liberty is 80 % optional filler, with very little revealed, or built upon or happening with any consequences. And what is either happens to be barely related to the unfolding events at hand (namely the Zeratul missions) or is served in the very last three missions and doesn't constitute much by itself to begin with (Kerrigan is de-infested, now what?). I am not inherently opposed to a branching storyline in "Heart" if they can manage to combine it with a lean, self sustaining script. If the branching missions stand in the way of that, however, they should most definitely go.

So essentially I believe that if anything, Metzen should have more direct, hands on involvement with the script and he and the other writers must think harder, and approach the task of creating an exciting and gripping plot much more diligently and seriously than they did in WoL. And they should believe in the StarCraft Universe, and think twice and thrice and four times about who the characters are and why are they the way they are and what makes them and the universe appealing to people (the last is VERY important, it's the difference between that "geeky" annoying and superficial "Cool explosions!" approach and actually thinking about what defines a character/situation/place/object both on an inner "lore level" and outer meta-narrative "audience level") and why anything happens and whether it is interesting and exciting and moves the plot forward. In short, they should put more effort into getting it right, the hardest and most important task in world-building.

Very well stated.


For those who didn't read it and would like a TL;DR... feel ashamed, this post is fantastic.

[Asfastasican]

YES
nothing can repay me my lost money, the game supposed to be epic (singleplayer) while it's not, oh I like how they don't know their own made up lore for WC and SC as even the most geekest fans can question them ...

Don't buy the game next time. Some people actually have expendable income because they have leveled up irl. And those same people don't care much if a product isn't perfect and they don't complain about a movie that didn't end up being a Godfather after watching it. That's why the Sims gave birth to this entire age of casual gaming. If you have a problem with it, get your lazy off of all these forums you rant on and go make your own gaming company. You know, do something with your life?

And to the above posts about Metzen being better suited as a stylist, believe what you want. He's just an old dog that's supposedly spread across several games and universes. Even he admits it's hard to realign himself after entering a room that's working on one project after leaving another room several minutes prior. Don't fool yourself. Metzen knows he's working under a strong brand now and he's a made man. Nothing wrong with that, just don't expect him to write Pulitzer-Prize winning story arcs.

And if you want to argue that Metzen somehow didn't influence WOL's awe inspiring fan fiction, just remind yourself who was adamant about not bringing the original Jim Raynor back and who kept the original Kerrigan away from the project. I don't have any problems with BSG as a franchise, but it's pretty obvious that Chris has a thing for blondes.

[Eligor]

And to the above posts about Metzen being better suited as a stylist, believe what you want. He's just an old dog that's supposedly spread across several games and universes. Even he admits it's hard to realign himself after entering a room that's working on one project after leaving another room several minutes prior. Don't fool yourself. Metzen knows he's working under a strong brand now and he's a made man. Nothing wrong with that, just don't expect him to write Pulitzer-Prize winning story arcs.

Since when where fantasy and sci-fi genres where the Pulitzer Prize counts for anything? And especially if we're talking about adventure stories written primarily to be adventure stories, without an underlying social commentary or philosophical inference. There's a reason why "Of Blood and Honour" is the only WarCraft novel that actually feels as if it's set in the same universe as the games (I'm leaving WoW out of the discussion here), and that's because it's written by the same guy who wrote the in-game dialogue and the manual texts. He may not be the greatest writer out there, but it's his approach and sensibilities that gave the story and dialogue of the games their particular charm and appeal (which, though some may consider it modest, is undeniably unique*). All in all though I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say in that paragraph. If it's that Metzen's a "made man" and therefore has no necessity to write things personally, well, he seems to be pretty enthusiastic to me as far as storytelling and writing are concerned and to be enjoying it all, so I don't see a reason why shouldn't (or wouldn't) he actually write. As far as I can judge from interviews with him the overall story and the names of characters and their biographical details HAD been a group effort as far back as StarCraft, but with Metzen writing the dialogue and generally co-ordinating and overseeing the whole thing, so it's his "voice" and style and largely his "creative DNA" you get in the end. I don't see how his stepping back to a less "hands on" approach is a good thing, unless there's someone at least as good and as distinctive as he taking over, although of course it's perfectly his right to do so if he wishes. But it would be sad to see him go the way of George Lucas, becoming a sort of presiding deity over story and universe created by him but with steadily diminishing personal involvement as time goes by (and no other projects around, though I'd still love to read that futuristic American civil war comic he has/had? in the works (for years now)).




*And which I would argue to be important in the development of heroic fantasy in cinematic form, since what we had by way of High Fantasy in film before the age computer games is very scarce and rarely adequate, and I think that it's in great part to the credit of Metzen and co. and other writers and voice actors in the gaming industry that films like "The Lord of the Rings" enjoyed such a wide success later on. Most of the people of my 90s generation (those who didn't read especially) were introduced to Orcs and Elves not through Tolkien but through WarCraft (though Tolkien often came soon after in the same parcel together with D&D et al), and though you may declaim such games as WarCraft II or Lands of Lore as "cheesy and cartoony" from your high literary pulpit, it is undeniable that they got the spirit of the thing right, much more easily and naturally (and with a greater sense of fun and creativity) than any movie and many books. This all is admittedly something of a tangent, but since we're already talking about the literary merit of Blizzard games, trying to define their actual importance and influence doesn't seem to be out of place.

And if you want to argue that Metzen somehow didn't influence WOL's awe inspiring fan fiction, just remind yourself who was adamant about not bringing the original Jim Raynor back and who kept the original Kerrigan away from the project. I don't have any problems with BSG as a franchise, but it's pretty obvious that Chris has a thing for blondes.

Actually he was perfectly honest about both sides of the issue as far as Raynor is conerned (watch the 2008 BlizzCon Lore panel videos). And Clotworthy was kept as the original actor. As for the whole Glynnis Talken debacle, we still don't know who exactly is responsible for that and why, so please don't automatically lay blame on Metzen. Although that was an asinine decision whichever way you may try to look at it. Of course he appeared quite happy and enthusiastic about all of that, and still has a high opinion of the WoL storyline. But I'm sure that if they ditched the whole branching missions idea and "player immersion" pseudo-pro-writer talk and instead concentrated on creating a kick ass storyline, we would have just that, a kick ass storyline.

[pure.Wasted]

Since when where fantasy and sci-fi genres where the Pulitzer Prize counts for anything? And especially if we're talking about adventure stories written primarily to be adventure stories, without an underlying social commentary or philosophical inference. [...] Most of the people of my 90s generation (those who didn't read especially) were introduced to Orcs and Elves not through Tolkien but through WarCraft (though Tolkien often came soon after in the same parcel together with D&D et al)

You raise some excellent points. However, I would argue that a chunk of the problem is that "adventure stories written primarily to be adventure stories, without an underlying social commentary or philosophical inference" might no longer be enough. There's a reason WC2 was followed by LOTR and not the other way around. It's impossible to appreciate the full extent of what LOTR has to offer at a young age. If you read it at 12, you might pick up the environmentalist subtext. If you read it at 14, you might pick up on the Christian subtext. If you read it at 16, you might pick up on how conflicted that Christian subtext is. If you read it at 18, you might pick up on the undeniably British aspects of the work. And so on, to the point where my latest reading has opened up a whole layer of literary depth that I didn't even know existed in the book.

And then I go back to the WC, or in this case, the SC universe. Not after SC1, but after 1984, after Dune, after A Clockwork Orange and Watchmen and Battlestar Galactica. Which, it's very possible, have SC to thank for getting us into them, to some extent. But now we're grown up. It's not unnatural to want the SC universe to grow up and mature with us. It might be unfair (ie, "if you want Watchmen go read Watchmen") but that's only true if StarCraft continues to be "theme-less" deliberately and because those themes would somehow get in the way of a bigger, grander adventure. And I don't think that's true. And, truth be told, I'm not sure that Blizzard has the writing talent to be ABLE to discern whether that's true or not, which is, I suppose, where this thread comes in.

You'll note that in my first post in this thread I said that my solution wouldn't be to leave Metzen out of the equation (for the same reasons you describe), but rather to add new talent in.

[TheEconomist]

Please leave "underlying social commentary or philosophical inference" out of my games. I read books for that. I want the story in the game to make me care about the characters and allow for epic gameplay. Social commentary or philosophical inference does none of that.

[pure.Wasted]

Please leave "underlying social commentary or philosophical inference" out of my games. I read books for that. I want the story in the game to make me care about the characters and allow for epic gameplay.

Please leave "underlying social commentary or philosophical inference" out of my movies. I read books for that.

Oops?

Social commentary or philosophical inference does none of that.

You seem to be under the impression that I want argumentative rants that'd make Ayn Rand proud, and I'm not sure what it is I said that could have left that impression. Not all social commentary is intrusive.

Ever heard of Bioshock?