Zerg early options vs P

[Todie]

I feel a little puzzled in ZvP lately; dont get to play it enough on ladder to stay consistent... i played this custom game on xelnaga against a bloke with a few hundred higher rating and realized i didnt really feel like i had enough clear-cut earlygame options for whenever they opt to block the 14hatch with a pylon (witch is alot of the time) ... im not so comfortable getting that hatch up at 20 instead, compensating with earlier 2nd queen from first hatch, and "pretend like it never happened".... a P timing push is tricky enough WITHOUT getting delaye early, so i want some other options!

im thinking: scout early to be kind of sure i get a gas-steal in?
if i get a gas steal in i can make atiming push at like 6:30 with +1roaches (recently did that vs Z, feels like a strong timing if you can hit it without being poked at) the idea being the gas steal should make him low / late on sentries and/or tech ...... i dont know if this is reasonable; maybe he's too likely to have enough sentries to simply deny my attack, and come out too far ahead in probe-count (and even tech?)... obviously, i'd expand while pushing out (first expo that is! kinda late!)

the other active alternative i see is something akin to what i guess is known as the 7 roach rush, into expand.. but i think it can still be nullified by sentires at ramp, and coming so early ill have even fewer drones as i launch it...

remind me; what are some things to look out for with the scouting drone when deciding if / when / how to push early?

can i do something relliable with an early-ish 2nd gas and ealry lair?

[JackhammerIV]

Well Todie getting just the 3-4 roach rush can be pretty good. Pool, gas, roach warren. Just 2 lings. Get a queen then get 3-4 roaches rallied straight to toss base. Get it up to 7+ if you want then just pump drones and expand. Forget about the pylon at the expo. The timing of it works out to be roughly when Toss has 3 units out (if he made that zealot while cyber core is building) and warp gate still has a ways to finish unless you're on a big map like shakuras.

Puts on a lot of early pressure and the toss opponent has to be wary of mass roaches. And it always surprises me but zerg can get so many units out out of 1 or 2 hatcheries with queens. I had a game where the opponent got expo up got a reasonable amount of drones then just made lots of speedlings. Lots. Didn't help that the map was xelnaga caverns. Takes full advantage of the big space though and that I went 1 gate expo.

That 3-4 roach into however many roaches you want + expo does well for a 12 gateway or later. Even if he gets sentries out have an overlord nearby and you can snipe it and any wall off toss has made. You can't really keep drone alive long enough to check inside his base.

Alternative is just expo at 14 at another base. Obviously very risky. Basically it means you need a lot of speedlings to cover both bases. Scouting first need to be aware of the gateway timing. Click the nexus and see how much chronoboost is saved. Second gas up doesn't say much about the strategy. Could be stargate/robo/sentries into expo/DT rush/etc. Gas steal would slow down those builds but a 3-4 gate timing push can still come off 1 gas.

If you get a fast lair you could get fast hydras I guess....but they wont be that many of them that early in the game. Maybe get a second gas and use ling baneling to defend (not sure you'd really need the second gas). Sure toss units won't melt like marines but banelings do make lings much more deadly.

[Thumper]

If you are looking for a protoss practice partner, add me 295.

I particularly need help in PvZ after 15 mins. Im horrible against mass mutas.

[JackhammerIV]

If you are looking for a protoss practice partner, add me 295.

I particularly need help in PvZ after 15 mins. Im horrible against mass mutas.

If you notice his SC2 sig is the flag of the EU.:P So yeah he can't practice with you. Mass mutas are fine to handle as toss at least for me. Harder to deal with tech switches and roach hydra. I go into every PvZ hoping the zerg is doing mutaling into ultralisk.:P LOL.

[Thumper]

Ah that's too bad. Im fine against roach/hydra but have a horrible time dealing with mass mutas. I basically have to do a timing attack at 11 min or I will end up slowly dying from muta harass. My problem is protecting my 3+ bases.

[JackhammerIV]

Ah that's too bad. Im fine against roach/hydra but have a horrible time dealing with mass mutas. I basically have to do a timing attack at 11 min or I will end up slowly dying from muta harass. My problem is protecting my 3+ bases.

Seems like we have opposite problems.:P LOL. There was a thread where a couple of us talked about some ways to counter mutas recently. Cannons, templar, blink stalkers, phoenixes, archons. Maybe it can give you some ideas.

http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9680

[masakari]

@Thumper
Yeah, read the link Jackhammer posted, its quite informative.
Having said that, if you already know he has mutas in the air and is pretty much committed to a muta based army, you might want to consider phoenixs of your own. Microed phoenixs are awesome against mutas and they are fast so they can react quick enough. Also learn to place a few well positioned patroling observers so that you can have a few seconds heads up as to when the mutas are coming in.

@Todie
Unfortunately, the scouting drone won't tell you too much. I always place down my tech after I dispatch the drone. Prior to the drone dying, all he will see is dual gas, cyber and 1 gateway... which can mean anything as a follow up. It is not a bad idea to just sacrifice and overlord to get the info you need... especially if planning to do a 7RR, coz you don't want to be caught with your pants down. Even if the roaches are prepared but you can't go up the ramp, just sit at the bottom of the ramp and quickly expand. Protoss needs to have a significantly stronger force to break out of your roach contain, at which point you can just quickly run away and set up spine crawlers at your expo.

[Thumper]

Oh Ive tried Phoenix. There was a game where i went 3 gate into expo then double stargates. I chrono boosted out phoenix and it was successful for a couple minutes. Soon after, the muta to phoenix ratio was 4-5 to 1. Storm seems to be the best choice since it's the only thing that does splash damage to them. Id much rather have corsairs to deal with mass mutas. I do like phoenix vs muta better in small numbers though.

[masakari]

Actually, in bigger numbers, phoenix's can still pretty much hold their own. If they outnumber you 5-1, you're a goner, but 2 or 3 mutas for 1 phoenix, you can actually whittle them down and still win. Anyone who says 1 phoenix can kill an infinite number of mutas is an idiot.... but basically, the concept does apply - phoenix vs muta battles, your phoenix should always be on the move and staying just out of muta range.

Once you hit 10 phoenix's with 1 attack upgrade, you can basically 1 shot a muta. I find 10 to be a magical number that can deal with huge hoards of mutalisks.... albeit it is a micro sink... if you are focusing on just the phoenix's, your macro and your land army kind of goes down the drain. I've ever had 12 phoenixs vs ~30 mutalisks with me coming out on top with 3 pheonix's left!

The main draw back with phoenix's is that that is all they are good against.... mutas. Should your opponent choose to go anything else, ie. roach/hydra/corrupter, you're screwed if you have more than a handful of phoenix's in the air. Storm is good, but you really do need to practice.... and huge number of cannons does buy you time to waltz the templer's slow ass to the contact point (or just warp in if you have the amulet).

[Hammy]

This isn't exactly what you're asking, but I'll just place the hatchery a bit further from the minerals most of the time.
Most P are sloppy when putting the pylon so you can get away with placing the hatch 1 or 2 matrix away from the minerals (preferably keep it close to gas). Actually, keeping your hatch 1 matrix away from the minerals is better when you're using more than 2workers/patch because of the AI. Even if it's a bit further, I prefer getting that hatch anyways since more hatch time = more larvae, which ultimately provides you with more workers at that point in the game.
I lost to Dauntless in a pretty embarassing way because of that though. Make sure you scout him very carefully in case he goes forge and builds canons next to your hatch. You can fight that off with 4/5 drones until you get a few lings if it's scouted (and that's fine since he'll be messing up his whole build to get that forge, and then you can run him over at T2).
In my game against Daunt, I was forced to cancel my hatch because of canons that were out of sight, and then he even put some behind my base while I was busy freeing up my natural haha. I'll definitely be more careful after that, but I still have no problem with misplacing a hatchery since I don't feel like I'm losing much mining time because of that, unless the pylon is mastefully placed.


When the pylon is really well placed I've seen high level players get a faster second gas and a fast lair then den (some guy from oGs did that and pulled it off brilliantly). That doesn't mean it's good for me, but I'll definitely be trying that out when I get a chance. I can see hydra with crawler support keeping me super safe from everything until the dedicated counter pops out, and will make it easy to secure an early 3rd and transition into roaches/infestors/BL afterwards.