Macro Mechanics Discussion Thread

[Aldrius]

For instance recharge shields is a good ability most of the time. But it becomes really good when comboed with warp-In.

How exactly? Null Shield and Argus Link work wonderfully with warp-in. Shield Recharge is pretty useless with warp-in.

Another thing is that there is an permanent benefit ability. If you plan on making allot of casters later in the game you might want to start upgrading those dark pylons.

Or just building more obelisks in this case.

[Noise]

The other abilities only need to rival Proton Charge in certain situations.

This is the problem. They actually need to rival PC in all situations. Scanner does rival MULE constantly throughout the game.

[Nicol Bolas]

Your statement about the other abilities (which aren't macro mechanics BTW) doesn't make sense. They wouldn't be competitive unless they were too good? There's a middle ground there, where the abilities are balanced.

The basic, fundamental tenant of StarCraft is this: more economy == better. The only time you would ever sacrifice economy for something is if you intend for that thing to end the game very soon.

Nothing competes with economy. Nothing.

That's why the OCC has Supply Drop, which is an economic ability.

The whole point of the Nexus-caster (or the shared mana pool, which I still prefer) is that you absolutely cannot have both Proton Charge and the other abilities at the same time.

Like hell you can't. It may not be cheap, but if building a second Nexus dedicated solely to these other two abilities means that my army becomes twice as strong without sacrificing the economy, it'd be a bargain. And that's the kind of level of strength you're going to have to give these abilities to compete effectively with economy.

Remember: if you're constantly casting PC, you're only going to have between 0 and 49 energy in your whatever building it's on. So there's not much regening you can do unless you either store up lots of energy, or make the regens very powerful (1:5 or 1:10). If you make the player store up energy to use them, then they're going to miss many cycles of PC. That makes any tactic that uses them all-in, due to the massive economic damage they have done to themselves. Is saving a single Zealot worth that? Is one Psi Storm sufficient to be all-in?

And making them powerful enough that a 10-point cast is noticeable... why wouldn't you build a Nexus dedicated to this?

Face facts: these are not the abilities you want to use to contend with an economic aiblity!

Scanner does rival MULE constantly throughout the game.

I wouldn't say that. Once you have Ravens, scans are no longer necessary for detection. You might then hold an emergency scan in reserve, but you'd still be calling for Mules at every available opportunity.

[Pandonetho]

Scanner isn't just used for detection, it's used for knowing every single move your opponent makes and every expansion they make and also for psychological effects since it drives people crazy to know that your opponent knows exactly what you're doing all the time.

[mr. peasant]

The basic, fundamental tenant of StarCraft is this: more economy == better. The only time you would ever sacrifice economy for something is if you intend for that thing to end the game very soon.

Nothing competes with economy. Nothing.

That's why the OCC has Supply Drop, which is an economic ability.

Supply Drop doesn't compete with MULEs since the latter mine more than 100 minerals per summon (the cost of a Supply Depot). Hence, using MULEs to build Depots is still a more cost efficient method.

This is why I'm in favor of giving Supply Drop to the Protoss. The exponential growth of Proton Charge means that there will be times when it is more economical to use Supply Drops and other times when Proton Charge will be. Instant psi is also useful for the Protoss thanks to their ability to instantly call in reinforcements (Warp-in) when needed.

Like hell you can't. It may not be cheap, but if building a second Nexus dedicated solely to these other two abilities means that my army becomes twice as strong without sacrificing the economy, it'd be a bargain. And that's the kind of level of strength you're going to have to give these abilities to compete effectively with economy.

Even if it is economical in the very long term, it might require too much time to be economically beneficial. It's akin to the Orbital Command; you don't see people speculating that Terran players will build multiple Orbital Commands per expansion to maximize/dedicate their functions.

Face facts: these are not the abilities you want to use to contend with an economic aiblity!

I agree. That's why before suggesting new abilities, we should first discuss the theme/concept behind such an ability. As for what can compete with economic abilities, other economic abilities are certainly amongst them. For instance, an ability that improves the quality of units (quality vs quantity) would be right up there as a possibility.

I wouldn't say that. Once you have Ravens, scans are no longer necessary for detection. You might then hold an emergency scan in reserve, but you'd still be calling for Mules at every available opportunity.

That's not necessarily true. It might be difficult/expensive to provide Raven coverage within all areas under your control. Hence, scans will be useful since they can be cast anywhere.

[SpiderBrigade]

Nothing competes with economy. Nothing.

Except for, you know, sensor scan. As far as I can tell everyone understands that scan competes quite handily with MULE drop.

That's why the OCC has Supply Drop, which is an economic ability.

Honestly, the Supply Drop is the sad third sibling. It might occasionally be useful, but the real rivalry is between MULE and Scan.

Like hell you can't. It may not be cheap, but if building a second Nexus dedicated solely to these other two abilities means that my army becomes twice as strong without sacrificing the economy, it'd be a bargain. And that's the kind of level of strength you're going to have to give these abilities to compete effectively with economy.

Are you kidding? Again, we have already seen how scan competes effectively with MULE. You will need to budget your energy to be ready for Dark Templar, baneling traps, etc. Yet somehow...no one is suggesting that building EXTRA COMMAND CENTERS would be a better option. The idea that competing abilities need to be world-shattering and overpowered to compete with mineral economy is bizarre, honestly. Yes, they need to be good. They don't need to be so good that they're worth 400+ minerals.

Remember: if you're constantly casting PC, you're only going to have between 0 and 49 energy in your whatever building it's on. So there's not much regening you can do unless you either store up lots of energy, or make the regens very powerful (1:5 or 1:10). If you make the player store up energy to use them, then they're going to miss many cycles of PC. That makes any tactic that uses them all-in, due to the massive economic damage they have done to themselves. Is saving a single Zealot worth that? Is one Psi Storm sufficient to be all-in?

Again, this argument fails if you apply the same logic to MULE vs Scan. Both cost 50 energy. If you need a scan, you lose out on one cycle of MULE cast. And yet...in many cases this will be worth it, for instance if your opponent drops DTs in your expansion. Yet again, no one is complaining that Scan is uber-powerful, or worth 400+ minerals.

[Nicol Bolas]

Supply Drop doesn't compete with MULEs since the latter mine more than 100 minerals per summon (the cost of a Supply Depot). Hence, using MULEs to build Depots is still a more cost efficient method.

But Supply Drop happens right now. Mules take a while to mine the 100+ minerals that pay for a Supply Depot. The Mule is better in the long run, but the supply drop is an immediate effect. If you need 100+ minerals worth of supply right now, then it is very much worthwhile.

This is why I'm in favor of giving Supply Drop to the Protoss.

Pylons perform 2 important tasks: providing food for the Protoss and providing Psi for Protoss buildings. While there certainly are times when you don't need Psi, you can still prepare Psi space for future buildings, or cover current buildings in extra Psi (incase one Pylon is killed). Supply Depots only have one function (though technically taking up space is a second one that SC2 capitalizes on).

Also, remember: SCVs spend a rather long time making a Depot, which is why I said it costs 100+ minerals; the time spent not mining is non-trivial. Probes don't spend an appreciable amount of time not mining when putting down a Pylon.

It's simply not as powerful of an ability for the Protoss.

Again, we have already seen how scan competes effectively with MULE.

I don't agree that it does. At best, it makes you keep some energy in reserve for emergencies, but that's it.

Also, I would point out that Turrets are still detectors. You can forgo scan altogether if you're more liberal with your turret placement. Is one Mule worth extra Turrets? Turrets that you can salvage for 100% cost if they don't turn out to be worthwhile after you get Ravens?

Yet somehow...no one is suggesting that building EXTRA COMMAND CENTERS would be a better option.

That's because you didn't ask. CCs can be moved. So if you're doing a prolonged one-base strategy, it wouldn't be a bad idea to get a second CC (and thus OCC) at some point. Not only will you have the extra SCVs when you eventually do expand, you'll also have extra Mules and/or scans and/or supply drops where needed.

Again, this argument fails if you apply the same logic to MULE vs Scan. Both cost 50 energy. If you need a scan, you lose out on one cycle of MULE cast.

That doesn't work. If your energy is between 0 and 49, it is necessarily not 50 or greater, and therefore you cannot scan at all.

The proper way to manage scans is to forego a Mule cycle in advance to store up an extra 50 energy. That way, when you need that emergency scan, you'll have it.

Basically, there are only 3 ways to play it: take a chance and have no emergency scans, store up one scan at some point, or keep 3 scans (150+ energy) and don't drop Mules until you hit the full 200 energy cap.

[Pandonetho]

Supply Drop doesn't compete with MULEs since the latter mine more than 100 minerals per summon (the cost of a Supply Depot). Hence, using MULEs to build Depots is still a more cost efficient method.

Time is critical in Starcraft, and MULES don't give you an instant 8 supply on the spot.
Supply is by far the most crucial factor to Terrans, as supply depots are useless and only take up space.

MULES gather a bit over 100 minerals in their lifespan. Supply drop gives you an instant 100 minerals so to speak, used for supplies.

Supply drops makes even less sense on the Protoss.
It's not even hard to keep up with supply for the Protoss, it's just part of building your base.

Of course, unlike Scan though, supply drop become increasingly useless later on in the game.

[Aldrius]

Supply Drop doesn't compete with MULEs since the latter mine more than 100 minerals per summon (the cost of a Supply Depot). Hence, using MULEs to build Depots is still a more cost efficient method.

Over time, yes. But not instantly. And you're forgetting the minerals you lose by having an SCV build a supply depot. Any minerals that SCV would have gathered while building the depot are lost.

And MULEs can't build Depots (though I think they should be able to build bunkers/sensor towers/missile turrets in half the usual time)... did you mean SCV or did they change something when I wasn't looking?

This is why I'm in favor of giving Supply Drop to the Protoss. The exponential growth of Proton Charge means that there will be times when it is more economical to use Supply Drops and other times when Proton Charge will be. Instant psi is also useful for the Protoss thanks to their ability to instantly call in reinforcements (Warp-in) when needed.

Supply drop is something the Protoss just flat out do not need. Pylons are practically a supply drop to begin with. Also flavour-wise it just does not make any sense. They are rarely, if ever hard-pressed for psi. And if they are, it's easy enough to build a lot of pylons, you just need a single stray probe. Much easier than building a bunch of supply depots, where you require an SCV for each one you want to build. Supply is a lot more difficult for Terran to attain.

I agree. That's why before suggesting new abilities, we should first discuss the theme/concept behind such an ability. As for what can compete with economic abilities, other economic abilities are certainly amongst them. For instance, an ability that improves the quality of units (quality vs quantity) would be right up there as a possibility.

It'd be a good one to be sure. Personally, I think cloaking is still the best idea for unit improvement. (The other stuff, like increasing shields is a bit too sensitive.) And plays into the necessary role of cloaking vs. detection that scanner sweep fills.

I would love to know why it wasn't popular in Blizzard's internal builds. Here's hoping they let the general public try it out when beta rolls around.

That's not necessarily true. It might be difficult/expensive to provide Raven coverage within all areas under your control. Hence, scans will be useful since they can be cast anywhere.

Well, to a certain point it depends on how many Ravens you've built. Point is, once you've got Ravens the value of Scanner Sweep is greatly diminished.

[Noise]

Nicol, I would say Scan competes with MULE only partially because of detection, but mostly because you can see anywhere on the map instantly. This is the most used purpose of scanner and pros do it all the time to discover hidden bases, enemy army size and tech etc. It's ridiculously good and I would definitely say retains most of its usefulness after you have detector units.