Macro Mechanics Discussion Thread

[ArcherofAiur]

The problem is future investments are near valueless....

Future investments are not valueless. Seriously +30% speed. +30%!!!!!!

[Aldrius]

The most creep tumours you're going to use is 2. (One to link your natural, one to start spreading it around the map if you want to do that early) Generally speaking.

The earlier the creep tumor the better, yes, but that's only affecting a decision very early in the game.

And unless you get rushed and killed because you didn't have enough lings or something, there aren't going to be too many ramifications for making that choice.

[ArcherofAiur]

The most creep tumours you're going to use is 2.

Again I dont think you can safely say that. Lets say you take a gold expansion across the map. You already have a line of creep tumors going towards your enemy and a line connecting your nat and base. Do you start a second line going to your gold? Do you start a second line going from gold to your nat? Do you want a line going from gold to the enemy? Do you want to start a line going from gold to nat AND one going from nat to gold?

[Aldrius]

I said generally speaking.

Even then you're not going to build that many more. It's going to depend on the map I suppose, but feasibly linking up say the gold minerals on DO with your nat is going to take A LOT of creep tumors. In that instance you're probably better off with overlords. Particularly since they're only vulnerable to air attacks with the way that map is designed.

[Krikkitone]

Future investments are not valueless. Seriously +30% speed. +30%!!!!!!

The Future investments are valueless if you can get them cheaper.

Ie If you are "investing" in something you can get for free, that investment is valueless.

Its like "Investing in Spawning pools", 1 is good it let's you get Zerglings. Zerglings!!!!!!!, but a second one is valueless(even though it also lets you build Zerglings!!!!!!... 1 Spawning pool lets you build all the Zerglings you want.
1 Creep tumor, planted by the queen, lets you build all the other Creep tumors you want.


Actually Aldrius' numbers are off, you are never going to need more than 1 (one) Creep tumor (planted by the Queen)

A Creep line going from your base to your natural... can then keep going toward your enemy. It can divert to the gold, and then fairly quickly double back (because the Creep has already been laid) and then move forward.

In a few cases you might want the Creep to take multiple paths simultaneously, but then 2 or 3 would suffice, unlike Comsat which is used several times in a game, or reassigning Chronoboost.

In terms of macros that need tweaking to provide proper tension

1. Transfusion (give it a +100 hp (permanent, only once) and +200 hp heal)... beef up the speed of the Queen

2. Call down Supply (just increase the amount of Supply Provided... or cut the cost, ie +12 for 50 energy or +6 for 25 energy)

3. Creep Tumor...change mechanic not just numbers



4. Comsat appears to be just fine, no change needed.


Spawn Larva itself could probably do OK with a decrease in the time (maybe drop it to 3 Larva, but it only takes 25 sec.)

[Aldrius]

A Creep line going from your base to your natural... can then keep going toward your enemy.

EVENTUALLY. But it'd be faster to just start a new one.

Totally depends on the map, though.

On Metalopolis it probably won't be worth it to start a second one.

On Blistering Sands or Desert Oasis? Absolutely. The distance between your natural and your main is at least two creep tumors.

1. Transfusion (give it a +100 hp (permanent, only once) and +200 hp heal)... beef up the speed of the Queen

I like the idea of a channeled transfusion that increases the health regeneration of a unit dramatically. Like 20HP a second for 20 seconds. Working on buildings too. But needing to stay within range of the Queen.

Might be too much like repair, though.

Also I still think the Queen should have a speed upgrade (make it only apply to creep, though). Maybe you could double-it up and make it a speed upgrade for the Queen and the Crawler buildings. Stick it in the evolution chamber.

[Krikkitone]

EVENTUALLY. But it'd be faster to just start a new one.

Totally depends on the map, though.

On Metalopolis it probably won't be worth it to start a second one.

On Blistering Sands or Desert Oasis? Absolutely. The distance between your natural and your main is at least two creep tumors.

Well in that case those 2 let you definitely cover the map. The one started from your nat goes to the enemy. The one started from your main goes to nat and then goes anywhere eles that might be useful (potential 3rds, alternate attack routes, watch towers)

In any case it isn't enough for serious tension in most maps.

Wheras if Every Creep tumor need to be created by the Queen, then it would be potentially serious competition. (and then just make them Much cheaper ie 5 energy each....perhaps they turn neutral ~40 sec after their 1 move.. so you lose the vision after the creep has spread.)

Also using Overlords would make that process very fast... put OL in position, drop Creep (instant road), have the Queen build the Creep tumors and 'permanentize' the road all at once. (but that would cost energy that could have made larva.)

I like the idea of a channeled transfusion that increases the health regeneration of a unit dramatically. Like 20HP a second for 20 seconds. Working on buildings too. But needing to stay within range of the Queen.

Might be too much like repair, though.

Yeah, that was my thought, having an "instant" heal seems unique.
The issue is making it worth using on units... the best way I can think of to do that is to add a boost (So it is typically done before combat rather than in combat)

Also I still think the Queen should have a speed upgrade (make it only apply to creep, though). Maybe you could double-it up and make it a speed upgrade for the Queen and the Crawler buildings. Stick it in the evolution chamber.

I do think a Queen/Crawler Creep speed upgrade would be good (Requires Lair?.. maybe an additional one that requires a Hive, making crawlers fast and queens very fast on creep.)

[ArcherofAiur]

The Creep Tumor genereating more creep tumors creates more tension not less with SL. It does not matter that one creep tumor can cover the whole map. One SCV can mine out the whole map. Are you only going to build one SCV?


Time is the most important resource in Starcraft 2. Games are won and lost on time. SL, Chronoboost, MULE, Warp-In etc... all time mechanics. If I have 2 creep tumor lines and my oppnent only has one than by the end of the game I could have twice as much of the map covered in creep. That is huge.

[ArcherofAiur]

GameStar:
Speaking about the new economy mechanics like the abilities of the Zerg queen: What was the general idea behind those?

Dustin Browder:
We want Starcraft to be very much about the tension between your army and your base. Warcraft 3 was largely focussed on your army, which felt right for that game. But in Starcraft, base building is an important part of the game, so being able to manage you economy is a key skill for your success. So while our automation was good and positive, it removed a lot of focus from your base. Instead of taking out all the automation and making you do more klicks, we thought it would be more enjoyable to give you more interesting choices within your base. That's why we implemented the economy mechanics to allow for new strategies.

GameStar:
In earlier versions the Protoss used the Dark Pylon to boost their economy. Why was it removed?

Dustin Browder:
It provided a little bit of complexity for not enough benefits.

GameStar:
Instead you added the »Chrono Boost« to the Nexus. Did you think the Protoss were too slow at the beginning of the game?

Dustin Browder:
We wanted a reason for Protoss players to focus on their base. We tried a lot of economy mechanics for the Protoss, and this was the one that provided the most interesting strategic choices. Because it forces you to choose between accelerating production at your nexus, gateway, stargate or robotic factory, or boosting upgrades at your cybernetics core or forge. So the strategic choice is not whether to use the chrono boost but what to use it on. Almost every building in your base becomes an option. This is one of our goals for Starcraft 2: Players who want to focus on their base get a benefit from it. And players who want to focus on their armies get a benefit from that. Focussing on both is very difficult, so it makes the game very hard to master.

[Aldrius]

*Grumble* That's not why they added the Queen, they added her to make Zerg defenses more usable and less of a gigantic investment...

Something which I have yet to see realized even if the crawlers are a boost over the colonies.

Wheras if Every Creep tumor need to be created by the Queen, then it would be potentially serious competition.

It would also be unbelievably annoying and a huge nerf for the Zerg.

But as long as there's spell tension I suppose...

Yeah, that was my thought, having an "instant" heal seems unique.
The issue is making it worth using on units... the best way I can think of to do that is to add a boost (So it is typically done before combat rather than in combat)

Well, I dunno if having an 'instant' heal is unique (It doesn't suit the Zerg at all). And the HP boost sounds okay I suppose. The healing ability is actually all right in the early stages. I think it's use will become more apparent as the game becomes more macro/terrain control-oriented.

I think an AoE heal would actually suit the Zerg better, but then it wouldn't be as useful on buildings... I dunno.

I do think a Queen/Crawler Creep speed upgrade would be good (Requires Lair?.. maybe an additional one that requires a Hive, making crawlers fast and queens very fast on creep.)

Why would it require the lair?

A 50/50 costing one at the Evolution Chamber would be sufficient I think. They don't need to be speed demons, just need to be fast enough to react to an attack quickly or to keep from getting surrounded so easily.

It does not matter that one creep tumor can cover the whole map. One SCV can mine out the whole map. Are you only going to build one SCV?

If SCVs could make another SCV every 10 seconds, yeah.

If I have 2 creep tumor lines and my oppnent only has one than by the end of the game I could have twice as much of the map covered in creep. That is huge.

It depends on the map.

It's not even guaranteed that making two creep tumors will help you speed it up all that much. Most maps have lots of chokes and things that make building creep tumors a poor choice. I mean you're exchanging an army/economy advantage for a slightly larger creep area.

It'll also probably not be 'double'.