Macro Mechanics Discussion Thread

[DemolitionSquid]

Not sure where this thread has gone since I last posted, but here's a wild question:

Are there any RTSes out there that require the player to move resources to the individual buildings that use them? For example, imagine SC with a mechanic where you have to command SCVs to take processed minerals and gas from the CC to production buildings so you can make units at them and to upgrade buildings so you can research abilities and make upgrades. Are there any RTSs out there that have you do this?

There are none that I know of, and its for good reason. The trip from minerals to main, and all buildings having access to all income, is simply more effective.

If you add in the need for every building to receive resources from the main, you turn this

Resources -> Main

into this

Resources -> Main -> Other buildings

In StarcCraft it would create two huge issues: increased worker count, and severely decreased reaction times.

Instead of just the workers you need to saturate the mine, you also need workers traveling between buildings now. So where you'd normally have 30-50 of your supply as workers, you're now using up to 100.

And then, you need to consider how many workers take resources to which buildings. Instead of being able to build a unit like the Immortal right away when you're being attacked by tanks because of a global resource pool, you'll have to start telling your workers who are feeding to other buildings that you need them at your Robotics Bay. The extra time needed to transfer them to your Bay, and for your Bay to accumulate enough resources to build the Immortal, may mean the difference between losing a Photon Cannon or two, and losing a whole defensive setup.

Global resourcing ensures you get what you what, when you want it, with the only limiting factor being worker saturation affecting IPS. If you created a "Resources -> Main -> Other buildings" setup, then your main exists solely as a way to slow down and delay the game.

[ArcherofAiur]

I think for the vast majority of the "anti-macro" crowd their problem lies with the purpose of the macro mechanics in the first place. They dont believe a player should have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements. As such we have a fundamental difference of game goals.

As far as making workers bring resources to buildings well thats the other problem with the Anti-PC crowds thinking. That if you put in decision making they automaticallly will not look at it as a choir.


The real problem is that a certain type of players just dont like base stuff. They perfer fighting stuff.

[Krikkitone]

I think for the vast majority of the "anti-macro" crowd their problem lies with the purpose of the macro mechanics in the first place. They dont believe a player should have to come back to the base to produce reinforcements. As such we have a fundamental difference of game goals.

The "anti-macro" believe you shouldn't have to do anything 'Mindless'

I'm sure they would all be fine if going back to base was needed to make an important decision, but not if you were just forced to go back to base.


If mindless mechanics were all Blizzard wanted, then it is Very simple.... You Automatically camera switch back to your base every X seconds, unless you are set on "maintain control of troops" which costs a slow stream of minerals. If you run out of minerals then you are stuck at your base.

As far as making workers bring resources to buildings well thats the other problem with the Anti-PC crowds thinking. That if you put in decision making they are automaticallly not going to look at it as a chore.

*edited for what I think you meant
If it is Real decision making then it Won't be a chore (ie this or this, well it really depends)

If you could collected Minerals in your other buildings (ie You could Store Minerals in Barracks for producing Marines/ as well as Gas so that you could produce Marauders, etc.) Then it would Not be a chore. It might not be the type of thing they want to you to focus on (preallocating resources to that degree) But with the right UI it coud be interesting, just not a typical RTS.

However... you would probably 'automate' that by allowing the player to 'set' how much of a Reserve they wanted to maintain in each building, excess minerals would get dumped off in the main, and whenever a unit was build from a building, then the excess would get automatically shifted around by Workers on "auto transport" to make up the deficit

As for Demo's worry about supply, that is no reason to reject the idea because the 200 supply max could be changed to 1000, workers could be set at 0.10 supply, etc.

If the game did the UI well enough and there were some real choices.... (although with reserves it seems like there wouldn't be.... perhaps units would build nearly instantly if you had the resources, but the resource flow rate was what controlled the ability to produce units.... ie you only ever need 1 Barracks, but to maintain a stream of Marines, you need a large number of Workers transferring Minerals into the Barracks.)

In that case, you would need a very streamlined UI to allow players to divert their minerals + gas to Their different buildings as they saw fit (also this would a tremendous advantage for the Zerg, their gamelay might need major changes in the interest of Balance (perhaps the tech buildings would need to be connected to the Hatchery for it to be able to build them... and you might have to transfer between Mains)

[DemolitionSquid]

As for Demo's worry about supply, that is no reason to reject the idea because the 200 supply max could be changed to 1000, workers could be set at 0.10 supply, etc.

The supply issue is an attention issue. Obviously you can make the limit whatever you want, but if people already have trouble keeping track of 30-50 workers, how well would they handle double that? Would they even bother?

And I'm impressed with your point about the Zerg, its very true and I feel silly I didn't notice it right off.

[ArcherofAiur]

*edited for what I think you meant
If it is Real decision making then it Won't be a chore (ie this or this, well it really depends)

If you could collected Minerals in your other buildings (ie You could Store Minerals in Barracks for producing Marines/ as well as Gas so that you could produce Marauders, etc.) Then it would Not be a chore.

They would absolutly look at it as a chore. The assumption thats been made is that as long as the player has to come back to base and choose whether to cast A or B than automatically "Timmy" players will like it.

That wont be the case. "Timmy" doesnt like the base. Period. He likes big smashy things.


For those who dont know what Timmy is
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...om/daily/mr11b

[Krikkitone]

They would absolutly look at it as a chore. The assumption thats been made is that as long as the player has to come back to base and choose whether to cast A or B than automatically "Timmy" players will like it.

That wont be the case. "Timmy" doesnt like the base. Period. He likes big smashy things.


For those who dont know what Timmy is
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...om/daily/mr11b

The "anti-macro" may include people who don't like the base.

But let me say if they gave all non-worker units the ability to give another unit (including itself..but you must choose your target) a "boost" increasing attack by 1 for 15 sec. and the ability's only cost was a 15 sec cooldown.....

90% of the "anti-macro" people that are arguing with you know would HATE that ability... even though it acts as a great APM sink, and focuses your attention away from your base (wow you need to target each unit in your army. Which units will you spend your clicks on, what great choices)

NO it is NOT a significant choice, because ..
If that ability had an autocast option,
Noone would EVER turn that autocast ability off

That means that
1) It should have the autocast option
or even better
2) all units should have "boost" on them at all times without any player input involved. (just like Zerg regenerate without any player input)


For many of us, it has absolutely nothing to do with not wanting to "return to the base" and Everything to do with not wanting to do mindless busywork to play the game.


Basically, the Current Obelisk would be better if as long as you have an Obelisk nearby a Nexus, all Probes visiting the Nexus get extra Minerals.

Oh, and we added a 200 Mineral cost Shield/Energy Battery as well.

[ArcherofAiur]

What if it was a hotkey that you had to click every 30 seconds? Would that be ok?

[Krikkitone]

What if it was a hotkey that you had to click every 30 seconds? Would that be ok?

It would be less annoying (like a murder is less bad than genocide)

On the OTHER HAND,

If the "boost" ability only lasted 10 sec. and required a 30 second cooldown, Then a Hotkey would be useful and would make the ability GOOD because there would be times you did NOT want to click it.

Because you might need it more 15 seconds from now than you need it now.
There is a choice, and all sorts of interesting strategy could come out of that... more importance to feints to get the enemy to use up their boost and have your main attack come in 15 sec. later, etc.


That wouldn't really apply to a mineral gathering macro as well, because minerals Now >= minerals Later in all cases

[DemolitionSquid]

It would be less annoying (like a murder is less bad than genocide)

OMG did Archer seriously just ask that? He STILL doesn't get that part of the problem with PC is the need to go back every X seconds? That scheduled repetition is bad?

Holy crap.

[newcomplex]

What if it was a hotkey that you had to click every 30 seconds? Would that be ok?

No that would be worse because now you a system that doesn't do anything, offering neither strategic choice or a -apm sink.

Now instead of a annoying but necessary feature, you just have a plain annoying one.