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Thread: Macro Mechanics Discussion Thread

  1. #11

    Default Re: Karune: Answers questions about the macro mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazy_Jonny View Post
    Maybe if Im playing BGH. If 1 base has 8-9 mineral fields, I dont see why you need more than 20 probes ON MINERALS. In total though, when you add the workers and gas probes, it comes out to 25-30. Thats way more for terran and zerg.
    I was including expansions. Sry.

  2. #12

    Default Re: Karune: Answers questions about the macro mechanics

    Ideal number for saturation is between 2.5 and 3 workers per patch.

    8 mineral patches * 2.5 = 20

    8 mineral patches *3 = 24

    So for a standard mineral line the number of min probes is between 20 and 24.

  3. #13

    Default Re: Karune: Answers questions about the macro mechanics

    K, I tried doing some research, did a little math, and whatnot to see if the ability is balenced. And even if it isnt, it can be fixed IMO.

    The probes after a full trip gather 8 minerals, the same amount as the fields, while the second like of probes finish gathering about the same time the next probe comes back...ok so its about 16 minerals.

    Now the Mule gathers 15, and bypasses the SCV so its a steady gather. Mules can also drop, its dependent on 1 gather unlike the probes, and can be balanced out by its life time.

    Probes shouldn't all get back to the nexus at the same exact time and rely on each other, so Id say the 2 abilities on some level are accurate to eachother.

    So yes, the PC is exponential, but only to a degree.
    Last edited by Crazy_Jonny; 07-13-2009 at 09:54 PM.

  4. #14

    Default Re: Karune: Answers questions about the macro mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazy_Jonny View Post
    K, I tried doing some research, did a little math, and whatnot to see if the ability is balenced. And even if it isnt, it can be fixed IMO.

    The probes after a full trip gather 8 minerals, while the second like of probes finish gathering about the same time the next probe comes back...ok so its about 16 minerals (assuming the next batch of probes dont all start gathering right away).

    Now the Mule gathers 15, and bypasses the SCV so its a steady gather. Mules can also drop, its dependent on 1 gather unlike the probes, and can be balanced out by its life time.

    Probes shouldn't all get back to the nexus at the same exact time and rely on each other, so Id say the 2 abilities on some level are accurate to eachother.

    So yes, the PC is exponential, but only to a degree.

    keep in mind that the math you just did was for when the toss has enough probes to reach saturation point. Before saturation point the MULE actually harvests more.

    Ok so are we done with the whole "PC is OP" thing?

  5. #15

    Default Re: Karune: Answers questions about the macro mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur View Post
    keep in mind that the math you just did was for when the toss has enough probes to reach saturation point. Before saturation point the actually MULE harvests more.
    True, but by the time you have an obelisk (which requires a gateway), a skilled player should almost be or should be at saturation point.

    I was never concerned if either these abilities were OPd, only if the spawn larva was underpowered.

    EDIT:
    also, if SC2 armory is correct, the OC requires the Merc Compound, which is later than a gateway/barracks, so if Im wrong about the saturation point, the Protoss do have advantage of getting the ability a bit earlier. This could also be easily balenced by increasing the build time of the obelisk.
    edit2:
    Disregard that it requires a barracks now.
    Last edited by Crazy_Jonny; 07-13-2009 at 11:35 PM.

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Karune: Answers questions about the macro mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazy_Jonny View Post
    True, but by the time you have an obelisk (which requires a gateway), a skilled player should almost be or should be at saturation point.

    I was never concerned if either these abilities were OPd, only if the spawn larva was underpowered.

    EDIT: also, if SC2 armory is correct, the OC requires the Merc Compound, which is later than a gateway/barracks, so if Im wrong about the saturation point, the Protoss do have advantage of getting the ability a bit earlier. This could also be easily balenced by increasing the build time of the obelisk.
    It seems so arbitrary to me that the OC would require Merc Compound, it also seemed very arbitrary that comsat required Academy. Oh well, its NBD just a little qq. I do believe that it puts the technology at the right place, they just don't appear to have anything to do with each other.

    It does seem on the surface that the Proton Charge ability lacks some flair, but it really is the logic choice given the abilities that the other two races have. Consider this:

    The problem: Three unique races need 3 unique ways to improve their economy. Your economy revolves around your workers. So there are 3 obvious answers.
    1) Provide a way to create more permanent workers (Zerg).
    2) Provide a powerful but temporary extra worker (Terran).
    3) Provide a way to make your existing worker do more (Protoss).

    Those are three fundamentally different approaches to the same problem. Now, I wish as much as anyone that both mule and PC weren't both just "point and click" eco, but I will leave it to people smarter than me to figure that one out.

    Also, in this thread there was a discussion about how PC scales exponentially, and that it could be too powerful because of that. With out getting into balance issues with out having played the game first, if it is exponentially more powerful the more workers you have than it is also exponentially more vulnerable to worker harassment. Now depending on many HP the mule gets, it could possibly be even more vulnerable due to it being a single target, but the point stands nonetheless.

  7. #17

    Default Re: Karune: Answers questions about the macro mechanics

    It seems so arbitrary to me that the OC would require Merc Compound
    Which is why it doesn't; it requires a Barracks. This has been confirmed in numerous reports, as well as from Blizzard themselves.
    "When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." - C. S. Lewis

    "You simply cannot design a mechanic today to mimic the behaviour of a 10-year old mechanic that you removed because nearly nobody would like them today." - Norfindel, on the Macro Mechanics

    "We want to focus the player on making interesting choices and not just a bunch of different klicks." - Dustin Browder

    StarCraft 2 Beta Blog

  8. #18

    Default Re: Karune: Answers questions about the macro mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicol Bolas View Post
    Which is why it doesn't; it requires a Barracks. This has been confirmed in numerous reports, as well as from Blizzard themselves.
    Ok, then scarmory just needs to update their site.

  9. #19

    Default Re: Karune: Answers questions about the macro mechanics

    There are still many stats on SC2Armory that are not modified :/


    -Psi
    >>You Must Construct Additional Pylons<<

  10. #20

    Default Re: Karune: Answers questions about the macro mechanics

    Quote Originally Posted by ArcherofAiur View Post
    ArcherofAiur:
    Are the Shield and Energy Recharge abilities useful enough of the time to compete with Proton Charge?
    There is allot of concern that they may not be as good an alternative as say comsat is to MULE.


    Karune:
    In my opinion, both recharge abilities are very useful, but often times it is better to build a second Obelisk when you can afford it to then use those abilities. If you are 100% efficient with probe buff, your first Obelisk should never have extra energy for the use of other abilities.
    Good to know that it is 100% busywork and has no real competing ability.

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