Macro Mechanics Discussion Thread

[ArcherofAiur]

Who is still a tiny portion of the player base.

Ultimately, whether these macro mechanics survive or not will be based on simply how fun they are. And I think we've made a pretty good case against PC being fun.

Remember we are talking about the competitive multiplayer part of the game. There are different priorities for this portion then the single player portion. Fun is important for both but there will always be parts that some people will find less fun then others. Allot of people simply wont find multiplayer fun to begin with.

Just as another example of single player not being as competitive, in single player there is an upgrade you can buy to increase your SCV gathering. Notice that this is a mechanic that gives resource boosts without the "busywork" task. Different priorities for different parts of the game.



Take home message: Different parts of Starcraft 2 cater to different player types. Multiplayer has a definate competitive emphasis.

[DemolitionSquid]

Remember we are talking about the competitive multiplayer part of the game. There are different priorities for this portion then the single player portion. Fun is important for both but there will always be parts that some people will find less fun then others. Allot of people simply wont find multiplayer fun to begin with.

Just as another example of single player not being as competitive, in single player there is an upgrade you can buy to increase your SCV gathering. Notice that this is a mechanic that gives resource boosts without the "busywork" task. Different priorities for different parts of the game.

We're not talking single player. Its all multiplayer melee. You're arguing for the competitive melee pros - the Bisus and Boxers. I'm talking about the competitive melee casuals - 85-95% of the melee playerbase. They will not find PC fun. They'll use it, but never enough for it to have the profit margins the pros will. As they learn to use it more how its intended, ie. always, they'll get bored trying to remember to click it every 30 seconds and it will remain used sparingly, or never used.

Take home message: Different parts of Starcraft 2 cater to different player types. Multiplayer has a definate competitive emphasis.

Again: at no point was I ever talking about singleplayer.

[ArcherofAiur]

Again: at no point was I ever talking about singleplayer.

I know you arnt. Thats what im saying. Your looking only at the competitive portion of the game and wondering why it isnt tailored solely to casuals. Thats part of why you dont understand the removal of manual mining and inclusion of macro mechanics. Its about transforming casuals to competitive.

We're not talking single player. Its all multiplayer melee. You're arguing for the competitive melee pros - the Bisus and Boxers. I'm talking about the competitive melee casuals - 85-95% of the melee playerbase. They will not find PC fun. They'll use it, but never enough for it to have the profit margins the pros will. As they learn to use it more how its intended, ie. always, they'll get bored trying to remember to click it every 30 seconds and it will remain used sparingly, or never used.

If you dont find PC fun thats unfortunate. If you dont find making workers fun thats unfortunate. If you dont find multiplayer as a whole fun thats unfortunate. However, if you do find challenges like PC fun then you will love multiplayer all the more. If you find that by practicing and maintaining focus you can better your game and overwelm your opponent then you will have fun.

I can tell you that the rush you get from winning a game where you know you macroed correctly is very real. The macro challenge strikes at a deeper and more mature type of fun. Its much more akin to self-improvement and overcoming obstacles. Its the thrill you get from beating your fastest swimming or running time. Its not the same type of fun as "Oh wow my thor has a huge gun! Boom Boom! Cool explosions!" or " Nice I placed that Psi Storm in the right spot and got his army!"

[DemolitionSquid]

I know you arnt. Thats what im saying. Your looking only at the competitive portion of the game and wondering why it isnt tailored solely to casuals.

What part of the words "multi-facet issue" escapes you? How many times do I have to say the tedious portion of the problem is my concern for the casuals, and the variable power of PC is my concern for the pros? I have been looking at the multiple flaws of PC which effect everyone since the beginning.

Thats part of why you dont understand the removal of manual mining and inclusion of macro mechanics. Its about transforming casuals to competitive.

You can't transform casuals into competitives if there are no casuals, because no one wants to even play the game due to broken design choices like PC that make the game horribly imbalanced and tedious.

If you dont find PC fun thats unfortunate. If you dont find making workers fun thats unfortunate. If you dont find multiplayer as a whole fun thats unfortunate. However, if you do find challenges like PC fun then you will love multiplayer all the more. If you find that by practicing and maintaining focus you can better your game and overwelm your opponent then you will have fun.
I can tell you that the rush you get from winning a game where you know you macroed correctly is very real. The macro challenge strikes at a deeper and more mature type of fun. Its much more akin self-improvement and overcoming obstacles. Its the thrill you get from beating your fastest swimming or running time. Its not the same type of fun as "Oh wow my thor has a huge gun! Boom Boom!"

Its not the same type of fun as "Oh wow my thor has a huge gun! Boom Boom!" But in case you hadn't noticed, that's the type of fun most people want. With these mechanics, B.net melee is going to be pretty dead.

[ArcherofAiur]

You can't transform casuals into competitives if there are no casuals, because no one wants to even play the game due to broken design choices like PC that make the game horribly imbalanced and tedious..

Actually I beg to differ. I remember when I first started playing multiplayer. I hated it. I was always losing in the first couple minutes. Then someone told me about making lots of workers. And I did it. All the sudden the game was ten times funner. I had improved and it showed.

Thats the other point that I think is being missed. The macro mechanics help new players imrpove their own macro. When you train yourself how to come back to the base to cast your macro mechanic you also train yourself how to come back to the base to make more produciton buildings or supply or tech or whatever. Its actually a really great tool for self-improvement.

Its not the same type of fun as "Oh wow my thor has a huge gun! Boom Boom!" But in case you hadn't noticed, that's the type of fun most people want. With these mechanics, B.net melee is going to be pretty dead.

EA has noticed. Well see if C&C4s "More guns, less busywork" approach outlasts Starcraft 2s competitive focus

[Nicol Bolas]

I know I promised not to talk to you anymore, but this is really beyond the pale now.

The macro challenge strikes at a deeper and more mature type of fun.

This is complete, total, unutterable Bullshit!

What is it that makes us Human Beings? What is it that allows us to have long lives, travel to other worlds, plumb the depths of the universe, even recognize how we came to be? Our Intelligence. We won the "big brain" lottery. That's what makes us better than the rest of the species on this pale blue dot spinning in the cosmos.

And what is the kind of macro you're describing? It's something a computer can do. Given access to the SC2 codebase, I could make the AI macro perfectly in a couple of days, tops. Computers aren't intelligent. They're simple machines doing simple computations.

We didn't evolve up from a self-replicating assemblage of RNA and fatty acids so that you could throw off your hard-won intelligence and perform tasks better suited to machines.

The only depth to be found in mindless macro tasks is that of suppressing your intelligence. That of turning yourself into a computer. When your measuring bar is a machine that can add numbers together, that shows just how little thought these kinds of brainless mechanics have behind them.

Making macro mechanics that require thought and decision making does not make those mechanics in some way worse. It makes them better. It makes them require human intellect rather than machine-like pseudo-thought.

Such thoughtful macro mechanics can still require physical skill to perform. They can still contend for attention from macro. But because they require actual intelligence to know how and when to use them, they are better than mindless mechanics.

I've never seen someone specifically advocate for dumbing down a game before. You are literally advocating idiocy like it's some kind of virtue.

It's like saying that big, dumb action movies ought to be big, dumb action movies rather than trying to be good, quality, smart action movies (Die Hard, Terminator 1&2, etc). That being big and dumb is some kind of compliment or something.

If there is one thing I can't stand, it's the idea that thinking is ever wrong.

With these mechanics, B.net melee is going to be pretty dead.

That's a little hyperbolic. We've already established that these mechanics are, mechanically at least, no worse than putting workers on minerals. Now, that doesn't make them good or even acceptable, but there are plenty of people who suffer through it currently.

[ArcherofAiur]

I know I promised not to talk to you anymore, but this is really beyond the pale now.



This is complete, total, unutterable Bullshit!

What is it that makes us Human Beings? What is it that allows us to have long lives, travel to other worlds, plumb the depths of the universe, even recognize how we came to be? Our Intelligence. We won the "big brain" lottery. That's what makes us better than the rest of the species on this pale blue dot spinning in the cosmos.

And what is the kind of macro you're describing? It's something a computer can do. Given access to the SC2 codebase, I could make the AI macro perfectly in a couple of days, tops. Computers aren't intelligent. They're simple machines doing simple computations.

We didn't evolve up from a self-replicating assemblage of RNA and fatty acids so that you could throw off your hard-won intelligence and perform tasks better suited to machines.

The only depth to be found in mindless macro tasks is that of suppressing your intelligence. That of turning yourself into a computer. When your measuring bar is a machine that can add numbers together, that shows just how little thought these kinds of brainless mechanics have behind them.

Making macro mechanics that require thought and decision making does not make those mechanics in some way worse. It makes them better. It makes them require human intellect rather than machine-like pseudo-thought.

Such thoughtful macro mechanics can still require physical skill to perform. They can still contend for attention from macro. But because they require actual intelligence to know how and when to use them, they are better than mindless mechanics.

I've never seen someone specifically advocate for dumbing down a game before. You are literally advocating idiocy like it's some kind of virtue.

It's like saying that big, dumb action movies ought to be big, dumb action movies rather than trying to be good, quality, smart action movies (Die Hard, Terminator 1&2, etc). That being big and dumb is some kind of compliment or something.

If there is one thing I can't stand, it's the idea that thinking is ever wrong.

Thinking is not wrong. Thinking is a good thing Nicol. But thinking isnt the only good thing. There are other types of skill.Thats why Starcraft is such a great Esport. It test multiple capabilities. One of the most exciting part is that sometimes the one with better technique can beat the better decision maker and sometimes the better decision maker can beat the one with better technique. You dont know if the runner is going to beat the chessmaster or vice versa.

Starcraft is running combined with speed chess. There are speed chess parts where you have make decisions fast and then there are running parts where you have to do a predescribed task fast. There is nothing wrong with having to predetermined task fast. Not everything in the game needs to have choices.

[Norfindel]

The "clicking busywork" is the primary desired effect. You may not consider it a skill but blizzard does. The point of the mechanic is to promote that skill.

This all stems from the fact that you dont like the skill and therefore you are trying to phrase the debate under the assumption that no mechanic should emphasize "mindless busywork". The reason these mechanics arnt automated is because we dont want them to be automated. A "Nesting Queen" would be a worthless macro mechanics.

This isn't about not wanting the skill, this is about not wanting the sheer stupidity of casting an ability all the time over the same spot. The mechanic *sucks*, there's no politically correct way of saying that.

Why do you think nobody is complaining about Warp-in? Because us lazy bastards think that it's so easy and low APM to use?

[ArcherofAiur]

This isn't about not wanting the skill, this is about not wanting the sheer stupidity of casting an ability all the time over the same spot. The mechanic *sucks*, there's no politically correct way of saying that.

You think the "busywork" skill sucks. Thats noted. Most competitively oriented people dont.

Why do you think nobody is complaining about Warp-in?

The really curious thing is why certain people arnt complaining about Warp-In not having the option for rally points.

[DemolitionSquid]

You think the "busywork" skill sucks. Thats noted. Most competitively oriented people dont.

Stop using the wrong terminology, please. Competitively oriented people includes everyone who plays SC melee. 85-95% of them are casuals, and they most certainly do not like busywork. You seem to be unable to group and separate the pros and the casuals properly.

The really curious thing is why certain people arnt complaining about Warp-In not having the option for rally points.

Maybe because rally warp-in is pointless? To do it, you'd have to have Warp-In activate every time the cooldown resets. The problem is that because the gateway loses its queue when you turn it into a warp gate, you have to go back to your gateway anyway every time it coolsdown to tell it which of the 5 gateway units you want, just like without rally. At most you're saving 1 APM by not picking where that unit warps-in everytime.

And don't try to counter with "PC only takes 2-3 APM," because that's not the issue. The issue is the strategy (or lack thereof) involved in the use of those APM. Choosing which of the 5 gateway units to warp-in, or even to warp-in anything at all and use up resources that could be spent elsewhere, is strategic. Casting PC every X seconds is not.