Macro Mechanics Discussion Thread

[DemolitionSquid]

Competeing and surviving are different? lol i dont know if you know this but in SC1 the zerg need to stay ahead an expo to survive. Seriously dude, Gomtv is your friend.

Fuck you? Ive said I've watched pro games. I'm not ignorant, I'm not uniformed, and I'm not crazy. SC1 Zerg expand early NOT because of minerals, but because of Larva, as Nicol pointed out earlier. In SC2, they won't have to expand as early because of the Queen. But if they don't expand, they'll be so far behind in minerals because of saturation and PC that the Protoss will easily out-produce the Zerg.

You dont have a quote. He never said there was a problem with the math. Stop making stuff up.

The quote exists, I just can't find it right now.

I just showed you that making equations without factoring in expanding is flawed. You obviously dont like it and have reverted to your typical responce of throwing a tantrum.

You showed me you can invent data that has nothing to do with the game. You also showed me you didn't read my article because
- I have a section clearly labed "Expansions"
- AND mentioned several times that the numbers I calculated were the gain WHEN the ability was used, not how often the ability was used
- AND stated that Zerg expanded faster, and were likely OP in early game right now, and showed that it didn't matter using actual data

Stop lying to my proverbial face. Show me quantifiable proof that PC can be balanced if it stays variable or GTFO.

[Nicol Bolas]

As i see it, any player currently going against a Zerg using SL, must force the Zerg player to build warriors *constantly*, or get behind in economy. That's it.

No. Your model doesn't include the effects of saturation or expanding.

All a player needs to do is kill Zerg expansions. And in SC2, that's not very hard; every race is more mobile in this game, so every race is perfectly capable of taking out Zerg bases.

Keep the Zerg at even expansions, and their economic "advantage" is useless.

[RODTHEGOD]

Dsquid I already told you how PC can be balanced so how about you pay attention for once. If you want to review what I've said, Fine I'll go find it again.

here it is
http://sclegacy.com/forums/showpost....&postcount=847

[ArcherofAiur]

Fuck you? Ive said I've watched pro games. I'm not ignorant, I'm not uniformed, and I'm not crazy.

Your right. You dont sound unstable at all.

SC1 Zerg expand early NOT because of minerals, but because of Larva, as Nicol pointed out earlier.

Zerg dont need the extra minerals? Dude just go ask Teamliquid if this is true. I know you dont want to swallow your pride but if you really want to understand how zerg economy works youll be willing to go ask them.

BTW im not saying zerg dont need extra larva so dont mischarectorize me that way.l

In SC2, they won't have to expand as early because of the Queen. But if they don't expand, they'll be so far behind in minerals because of saturation and PC that the Protoss will easily out-produce the Zerg.

So the zerg expand. Its not some huge problem. I think your trying to frame it as such by saying the zerg HAVE TO expand. Making it seem like its this big bad evil thing when really its just how the race plays.

The quote exists, I just can't find it right now.

I like how you first tried to lie and say you had posted it so many other places and it was my fault that I hadnt seen it. Whats the matter? Cant find it in any of the many places you posted it previously?

He never said anything about Proton Charge and math. I pay very close attention to everything Blizzard says about the macro mechanics.

You showed me you can invent data that has nothing to do with the game.

What a coincidence. Thats exactly what im saying you did.

No. Your model doesn't include the effects of saturation or expanding.

All a player needs to do is kill Zerg expansions. And in SC2, that's not very hard; every race is more mobile in this game, so every race is perfectly capable of taking out Zerg bases.

Keep the Zerg at even expansions, and their economic "advantage" is useless.

And coincidentally the Zerg is also trying to do the same to you. Do you see now how total army effectiveness factors into the economy? You cant just make a math equation and call it a day. You have to observe how it facotrs into the whole game.

[DemolitionSquid]

Your right. You dont sound unstable at all.

I'm just annoyed at your ignorance.

Zerg dont need the extra minerals? Dude just go ask Teamliquid if this is true. I know you dont want to swallow your pride but if you really want to understand how zerg economy works youll be willing to go ask them.
BTW im not saying zerg dont need extra larva so dont mis-characterize me that way.

How about you stop pointing to team liquid and back up your own arguments? TL has never provided me with any factual information, all they have are opinions which as far as I can tell, are usually inaccurate. Their "facts" are a goddamn joke.

Also, learn to spell.

So the zerg expand. Its not some huge problem. I think your trying to frame it as such by saying the zerg HAVE TO expand. Making it seem like its this big bad evil thing when really its just how the race plays.

It is a problem, not so much in SC1, but definitely more in SC2 because of the macro mechanics.

I like how you first tried to lie and say you had posted it so many other places and it was my fault that I hadnt seen it. Whats the matter? Cant find it in any of the many places you posted it previously?

He never said anything about Proton Charge and math. I pay very close attention to everything Blizzard says about the macro mechanics.

I have posted the quote once. I've referred it many times, just not in awhile. Every time I've posted it, you've appeared to ignore it. The quote exists, and if anyone is a liar, its you.

What a coincidence. Thats exactly what im saying you did.

So my mathematical evidence, backed up by others, is fake? And your evidence, of which there is none, is true?

How insightful of you.

And coincidentally the Zerg is also trying to do the same to you. Do you see now how total army effectiveness factors into the economy? You cant just make a math equation and call it a day. You have to observe how it factors into the whole game.

More proof you didn't read my article, seeing as I ALSO mentioned several times the discrepancy between Zerg army and Protoss economy, AND explained it in a big section called "Racial Diversity."

[ArcherofAiur]

How about you stop pointing to team liquid and back up your own arguments? TL has never provided me with any factual information, all they have are opinions which as far as I can tell, are usually inaccurate. Their "facts" are a goddamn joke.

Your afraid that the people who actually know how competitive Starcraft works are going to shatter all the assumptions you cling to. They arnt inaccurate. There the ones actually playing at D+ and greater levels (well most of them are).

Also, learn to spell.

know

It is a problem, not so much in SC1, but definitely more in SC2 because of the macro mechanics.

Its not a problem. Its how Starcraft works. Starcraft is a game of balanced imbalances.

I have posted the quote once. I've referred it many times, just not in awhile. Every time I've posted it, you've appeared to ignore it. The quote exists, and if anyone is a liar, its you.

He never said it and you have no proof to back up what your saying. Kind of funny considering how much your claiming to have proof and numbers and math and facts on your side.

So my mathematical evidence, backed up by others, is fake? And your evidence, of which there is none, is true?

Your great mathematical equation doesnt factor in expansion. You show what a one mineral increase per second and say thats going to add up into this terrible thing while simultatiously ignoreing how many total bases a race has. You put a lot of effort into you graph. Thats very good. But its not accurate at all. You came up with the conclusion first and then found little ways to emphasize what supported your conclusion while dismissing huge things that didnt. Thats not science Dsquid.







Now lets take a closer look at what you actually said in your expansiona and racial diversity sections.

All this culminates as the player expands and creates new bases. The gap increases as you add more workers and the ability to use the mechanics more. At three saturated expansions of 23, the equations become:

Zerg: (69 x 5)/5 = 69
Terran: [(69 x 5) + (3 x 15)]/5= 78
Protoss: (69 x 6)/5 = 82.8

Granted, these are extreme numbers and are unlikely to occur in an actual game, but must be recognized as existing.

What pray tell did you actually mean by that last part? Its almost like your saying "Granted these numbers would never happen in starcraft but you at least need to realize that the number 82.8 is a real number and if this equation was the correct equation that the equation would give this very real and actual number."

Its almost like you realize that the races take expansions at different times and this is incredbly important to how much income they have. Its almost like you just tried to breeze on by that part and hoped no one would notice.


As far as your Racial Balance section I felt that to be rather unfocused. The part I liked best was how you start the section admiting that the Zerg had to remain an expansion ahead and then later you slip back into this

In StarCraft I, the balance was simple. There was no discrepancy between additive macro mechanics and variable or exponential ones, because they didn't exist. All races had access to the same income rate.

Well wait a second. A little while ago you told us they didnt have the same income rate.

[Nicol Bolas]

And coincidentally the Zerg is also trying to do the same to you.

Which means what, exactly? If the Zerg have to have more expansions, that means having more territory to defend. It's easier to attack someone who has to be spread thin than to attack someone who doesn't. If the Protoss is on two bases and the Zerg on 3, it is much easier for the Protoss to pick the least-defended or easiest to attack of the bases.

Unless you can point to some specific feature of the Zerg that would allow them to defend more territory with fewer resources than other races, there is no reason to assume that the Zerg would be able to maintain higher expansion rates than the other races.

In SC1, the Zerg could get away with it vT due to the relative Terran immobility and map construction. The former of this doesn't exist anymore. Vs. Protoss, the Zerg could get away with it only because the Protoss themselves are fast-expanding.

Your great mathematical equation doesnt factor in expansion.

There was an entire section in the article about expanding.

[ArcherofAiur]

Which means what, exactly? If the Zerg have to have more expansions, that means having more territory to defend. It's easier to attack someone who has to be spread thin than to attack someone who doesn't. If the Protoss is on two bases and the Zerg on 3, it is much easier for the Protoss to pick the least-defended or easiest to attack of the bases.

Unless you can point to some specific feature of the Zerg that would allow them to defend more territory with fewer resources than other races, there is no reason to assume that the Zerg would be able to maintain higher expansion rates than the other races.

In SC1, the Zerg could get away with it vT due to the relative Terran immobility and map construction. The former of this doesn't exist anymore. Vs. Protoss, the Zerg could get away with it only because the Protoss themselves are fast-expanding.

hmm your right. If only they had some kind of quick transport mechanic. Actually that still might not be enough. They should be able to instantly move their entire army from base to base as well.

You see how we keep getting more and more factors thrown in? Do you see how the equations you made at the beggining left out huge huge things like when the zerg can expand, how harrassment works, how much they need to replenish their army, etc...

Your excell graph cant handle all those factors. Youd need some kind of sophisticated computer program that would take years to develop. You would probably want to improve the graphical interface to more clearly see how even things such as map layout and pathing can influence total army effectiveness and therefore economic progression. Actually when your finished making this model youd probably want to sell it to other people and see if they enjoyed using it. And if they did you would want to make 2 expansions.

There was an entire section in the article about expanding.

He takes the equations he made while ignoring when different races expand and then applies them to a situation in which all the races have the same number of bases. What part of that is accurate?

[MaybeNextTime]

Which means what, exactly? If the Zerg have to have more expansions, that means having more territory to defend. It's easier to attack someone who has to be spread thin than to attack someone who doesn't. If the Protoss is on two bases and the Zerg on 3, it is much easier for the Protoss to pick the least-defended or easiest to attack of the bases.

Unless you can point to some specific feature of the Zerg that would allow them to defend more territory with fewer resources than other races, there is no reason to assume that the Zerg would be able to maintain higher expansion rates than the other races.

In SC1, the Zerg could get away with it vT due to the relative Terran immobility and map construction. The former of this doesn't exist anymore. Vs. Protoss, the Zerg could get away with it only because the Protoss themselves are fast-expanding.



There was an entire section in the article about expanding.

Read Hot_Bid and Chill's articles.

Zerg can power much more quickly than Terran or Protoss and are unpredictable as far as power vs. mass goes. This means that Terran and Protoss need to either overly defend/play very aggressively in case the Zerg chooses to mass or gamble to power themselves, expecting the Zerg to do the same, and risk getting overrun in case he doesn't.

This allows the Zerg to obtain some decisive map control and outexpo Terran/Protoss opponents.



Also, as far as I know, Zerg goes for FE openings for more Larvas initially and for more gas as a longterm goal. That's earlygame. In midgame and lategame the primary goal is obtaining more gas.

[MattII]

Dsquid I already told you how PC can be balanced so how about you pay attention for once. If you want to review what I've said, Fine I'll go find it again.

here it is
http://sclegacy.com/forums/showpost....&postcount=847

And it's a pile of crud because it balances at exactly one point, but you have no way of ensuring that the game ends there. Besides, you work with vague, arbitrary numbers, DSquid works with direct-from-the-game numbers, so even if he is wrong (and I doubt he is), your own numbers are worthless to try to prove this.

Read Hot_Bid and Chill's articles.

Link?