Macro Mechanics Discussion Thread

[Nicol Bolas]

If i did things right, MULE seems to add minerals/sec, PC multiplies minerals/sec (workers x 6 / 5 instead of workers x 5 / 5, a 20% increment), and, if you use the 4 extra larva for Workers, Spawn Larva exponentially adds to minerals/sec (+4 minerals/sec for the whole game, and lose 200 minerals every 25 seconds).

You have failed to take into account the fact that more workers does not always mean more minerals; you have to be below the saturation point for that to happen. So when everyone is saturated at all of their mineral patches, the Protoss and the Terrans will easily be able to out produce them. Thus, the only option for the Zerg to keep up is to expand. Note that this is just to maintain parity.

Nor have you taken into account that, while workers are permanent, they also eat supply, unlike PC or Mules. Which means you have a disproportionately smaller army than your opponent.

[ArcherofAiur]

Gas —> Minerals[INDENT]One idea is to use vespene gas to boost worker mineral gathering on a per-trip basis (as opposed to a time interval). It should either decrease the time it takes for a worker to gather a chunk of minerals, increase the amount of minerals brought back per trip, or a mix of both. Also, the effects wouldn't stack; instead, the more you boost, the more trips the effect would last. Either way, you would select the number of workers you wish to boost and then boost them for a fixed amount of gas per worker (probably 10 points per worker).

In some ways this could include Archer's targeting decision, as it would be unwise to always select all of your workers and boost them for several hundred points of gas. Gas is a sensitive resource, and most of the time you only need a slight boost in minerals. So, the targeting decision would come in the form of having to either deselect workers from a hotkey group or manually select workers at a specific resource node.

Thats not really a good targeting decision. Nicol pointed out the problem with making repeated targeting of minerals and workers. All workers are the same. All mineral (cept yellow) are the same. Were being crippled by the simpleness of the economic model.

I like how your focusing on the relationship between gas and minerals though. Here new angle. Pretend your not making a multiplayer mechanic. Pretend your making a caimpaign map and you have zero worries about balance.

You want to make a race specific mechanic that gives the player a fun way to get more resources. Just really focus on fun. Heck make it overpowered.

[Norfindel]

You have failed to take into account the fact that more workers does not always mean more minerals; you have to be below the saturation point for that to happen. So when everyone is saturated at all of their mineral patches, the Protoss and the Terrans will easily be able to out produce them. Thus, the only option for the Zerg to keep up is to expand. Note that this is just to maintain parity.

Just assume that the player is going to expand to keep it's bases from saturating, this is just to test the mechanics, not the balance of the whole game.

Nor have you taken into account that, while workers are permanent, they also eat supply, unlike PC or Mules. Which means you have a disproportionately smaller army than your opponent.

But that difference is meaningless you need to build and extra Overlord every 8 workers, so instead of using 200 minerals every 25 seconds you use 250, not a big difference.

It's not meant to be the absolute perfection, but with Spawn Larva, you use 250 minerals at 25 seconds intervals, and that permanently raises your minerals/second by +4 (accumulative).

Clearly, it has a tendency to skyrocket, as you only need to get back 250 minerals every 25 seconds to keep casting Spawn Larva all the time, which means 10 minerals/second. 10 Drones constantly mining.

While workers eat-up supply, that doesn't means that the enemy has already reached the supply limit, either. The only things that keeps Spawn Larva from skyrocketing are that you need Larva to build warriors, and that you need to use minerals *now* to get a permanent increase in your mining rate.


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[n00bonicPlague]

Thats not really a good targeting decision. Nicol pointed out the problem with making repeated targeting of minerals and workers. All workers are the same. All mineral (cept yellow) are the same. Were being crippled by the simpleness of the economic model.

I'll certainly agree with you on that last point.
There's just not much we can do with what we've got.

I like how your focusing on the relationship between gas and minerals though. Here new angle. Pretend your not making a multiplayer mechanic. Pretend your making a caimpaign map and you have zero worries about balance.

You want to make a race specific mechanic that gives the player a fun way to get more resources. Just really focus on fun. Heck make it overpowered.

Screw it — let's say I'm making my own friggin' game. I would implement three different races (A, B, C) with four different resources (W, X, Y, Z).

• Race A uses resources X and Y
• Race B uses resources Y and Z
• Race C uses resources Z and X
• All three races use resource W

Then you could have expansions that can only be used by certain races to a certain degree. For special mechanics, there could be ways for each race to turn an unusable resource into a usable one. For instance, let's say Race A finds a site with resources X, Z, and W. He can use X and W, but Z is useless unless he changes it into Y or X using his mechanic.

[ArcherofAiur]

Now were theorycrafting :P

I know allot of people wont get the point of talking about something so "out there" but lets explore this more.

What would your resource system for one race be? Whats a cool way to get a resource?

[Nicol Bolas]

this is just to test the mechanics, not the balance of the whole game.

That's why D-Squid's model is more accurate than yours. Your model only accounts for some factors, while his accounts for more than that.

But that difference is meaningless you need to build and extra Overlord every 8 workers, so instead of using 200 minerals every 25 seconds you use 250, not a big difference.

Until you hit the supply cap. Then your macro mechanic stops working. The point is that, for any particular quantity of supply, the Terrans and Protoss can get more out of it than the Zerg. Not to mention the whole "not being able to have an equivalently-sized standing army" issue.

Whats a cool way to get a resource?

Why are you so focused on resource acquisition? Remember: it's how money gets spent that provides the bulk of SC1's macro: selecting buildings and building units.

[ArcherofAiur]

Why are you so focused on resource acquisition? Remember: it's how money gets spent that provides the bulk of SC1's macro: selecting buildings and building units.

Because all the races already have unit production mechanics.

[Norfindel]

That's why D-Squid's model is more accurate than yours. Your model only accounts for some factors, while his accounts for more than that.

No, in fact, i used his equations. The only difference, is that i count the amount of resources accumulated, not just the rate of resource gathering. The rate is just how steep the line is on the graphic, anyways.

Until you hit the supply cap. Then your macro mechanic stops working. The point is that, for any particular quantity of supply, the Terrans and Protoss can get more out of it than the Zerg. Not to mention the whole "not being able to have an equivalently-sized standing army" issue.

Do you realize that Spawn Larva is better than an extra Hatchery? You can get workers faster than the enemy, and that means faster economy. Supply doesn't matters at all, any amount of supply used on workers is worth it, as long as your army isn't too small because of that.
Look, i modified the spreadsheet to be more detailed. Now, it substracts 50 minerals every 17 seconds, when it adds a worker, and only 2 extra Larva from Spawn Larva are used to build Drones, and you pay 25% of an Overlord every time you make that 2 SL Drones. Still, the economy skyrockets. Take a look:



The spreadsheet is here, you're free to take a look: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=MG6T1UGG

The macro mechanics don't kick in so early, however, but that gives some idea of what to expect when they do kick in. Every time you make a worker, you improve the mining rate, there's no way around that. And you can get more workers faster with Spawn Larva, not to mention other units. The Zerg "drone or warrior" tradeoff is still there, but remember than at any time you have enogh minerals, you can make another Hatchery.

As i see it, any player currently going against a Zerg using SL, must force the Zerg player to build warriors *constantly*, or get behind in economy. That's it.


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[ArcherofAiur]

Quick question, which of these do you think more accurately models Starcraft 2?

An excel graph you made

OR

Starcraft 2

[DemolitionSquid]

Archer, just shut up. You claim PC is fine, and are backed up by no evidence. You try to discredit any evidence it's broken by stating the game is still in beta, and then refuse to acknowledge that argument when its used against your position PC is balance-able. You are a hypocrite and a fraud. Shut up and stop sucking TL's tit.