Macro Mechanics Discussion Thread

[ArcherofAiur]

If SCVs could make another SCV every 10 seconds, yeah.

No your missing the analogy. An SCV gives your another increasing amounts of minerals as the game goes on. This is an increase the the speed you mine minerals. Theoryetically given enough time one SCV could mine out all the minerals on the map. Theoretically one creep tumor could cover the whole map with creep. But all of the is ignoring the most vital resource in starcraft:

Time

It depends on the map.

Thats where decision making comes in! See how that works!

[Islandsnake]

Good god I can't believe this horrible thread is still going on

[Krikkitone]

No your missing the analogy. An SCV gives your another increasing amounts of minerals as the game goes on. This is an increase the the speed you mine minerals. Theoryetically given enough time one SCV could mine out all the minerals on the map. Theoretically one creep tumor could cover the whole map with creep. But all of the is ignoring the most vital resource in starcraft:

Time

Analogy is Badly Flawed.

I build 1 SCV... I can mine out the whole map in X time
I build 2 SCVs...I can mine out the whole map in X/2 time

This continues up to about 16 SCVs, then I need a CC for each 16 SCVs... and then it continues until I have 1 CC for each Mineral patch on the map. only then does it stop.

On the other hand
I build 1 Creep tumor, I can Creep the whole map in X time
I build 2 Creep tumors, I can Creep the whole map in X/2 time (almost)

At a certain point, (infinite creep tumors) I still need sqrt X time to creep the whole map, because even though my creep can go in all directions it only expands so fast.

(note: your idea would work if Creep tumors could be built off of Creep)

Now you can use OL/Hatcheries to speed it up but those are very vulnerable and expensive compared to Creep tumors (which Cost time because they cost energy and a Whole lot of it)


On the other hand, if Each Creep tumor cost a certain amount of energy from the Queen... a tiny amount (3-7) then a certain area of creep comes at the cost of a Larva. (ie each Spawned Larva is equivalent to 2 Creep patches)

This is the choice, more units or more area... do I enhance my units or get more of them. Indeed with a "transfusion boost" it would be
1. Enhance individual unit significantly (Transfuse)
2. Enhance Army slightly (+30% speed over a part of the map)
3. get more total units (Spawn Larva... limited by resources)





As for Transfusion's instant heal not being 'Zergy' well it makes them more 'back from the dead' ie unstoppable wave.

Also noone else has an 'instant heal' there's regen, shield regen, repair, Medivacs, but no 'add hp back to target'

[ArcherofAiur]

Analogy is Badly Flawed.

I build 1 SCV... I can mine out the whole map in X time
I build 2 SCVs...I can mine out the whole map in X/2 time

This continues up to about 16 SCVs, then I need a CC for each 16 SCVs... and then it continues until I have 1 CC for each Mineral patch on the map. only then does it stop.

On the other hand
I build 1 Creep tumor, I can Creep the whole map in X time
I build 2 Creep tumors, I can Creep the whole map in X/2 time (almost)

At a certain point, (infinite creep tumors) I still need sqrt X time to creep the whole map, because even though my creep can go in all directions it only expands so fast.

Yes it takes time for creep tumors to expand your creep. It also takes time for SCVs to mine. I think your trying to point out exagerated limititations like "1 CC for each mineral patch" and "infinete creep tumors" Thats fine and good that the theoretical (extreme and unrealistic) limits are limited by different things but we both know thats not how the game is played.

[Aldrius]

No your missing the analogy. An SCV gives your another increasing amounts of minerals as the game goes on. This is an increase the the speed you mine minerals. Theoryetically given enough time one SCV could mine out all the minerals on the map. Theoretically one creep tumor could cover the whole map with creep.

This analogy is deeply flawed, though. One creep tumor will cover A LOT of the map with creep in a reasonable amount of time. Particularly where you NEED it. One SCV will not get you the minerals you want or need in sufficient time.

But all of the is ignoring the most vital resource in starcraft:

Time

No it's not. The amount of time a creep tumor needs to spread the creep versus the amount of time an SCV takes to gather minerals is not that close at all.

Plus terrain control works VERY differently from how resourcing works.

[Krikkitone]

Yes it takes time for creep tumors to expand your creep. It also takes time for SCVs to mine. I think your trying to point out exagerated limititations like "1 CC for each mineral patch" and "infinete creep tumors" Thats fine and good that the theoretical (extreme and unrealistic) limits are limited by different things but we both know thats not how the game is played.

Meant 1 CC for each mineral location (expansion spot)... which is how the game is played.


As for Making the Creep tumors Each require a certain amount of energy, that would
1. Allow a 'short creep path' to not only get built faster but to cost less Queen energy
2. Allow use of OL to allow a path to be built basically instantly (or as fast as the OL can move)
3. Allow a single casting to move in multiple directions

The first+3rd make it more worthwhile to divert some energy from spawn Larva... even earlier in the game.


As for it being a Nerf.... how many Creep tumors are normally spawned off 1? as Archer said, Time is the limiting factor in their utility. So 5-10 at most... which suggests the average Creep tumor is between 3-5 energy cost.

I'm suggesting they cost about that much, but can be placed in any location there is creep as opposed to waiting for a chain of tumors to reach a creep location. (which really helps when the Lair is up and OL can extend Creep)

This way the "Time portion" of the cost is the energy of the Queen (which has to sacrifice Larva that it could have made in that time)

[Aldrius]

As for it being a Nerf.... how many Creep tumors are normally spawned off 1? as Archer said, Time is the limiting factor in their utility. So 5-10 at most... which suggests the average Creep tumor is between 3-5 energy cost.

I'm suggesting they cost about that much, but can be placed instantly, so their Cost is based on time, (energy), as is their benefit (how long you get to use the bonus in that area). But reaching the area is harder.

It would take forever. And you'd be leaving your Queen vulnerable.

Honestly, this obsession with spell tension is silly. The spells should be fun and interesting. Spawn larvae is not that fun or interesting (IMO anyway) whether it has spell tension or not.

[Krikkitone]

It would take forever. And you'd be leaving your Queen vulnerable.

No it wouldn't take forever/make your Queen vulnerable not if the Creep tumors relocated... so
25 energy... produce 6? Creep Tumors [the Queen does this in the base]
Each Creep Tumor can Relocate as soon as Creep is available for it (The Creep Tumor is vulnerable in transit but not the Queen)

Honestly, this obsession with spell tension is silly. The spells should be fun and interesting. Spawn larvae is not that fun or interesting (IMO anyway) whether it has spell tension or not.

Well if they did something like make it 50 energy for ... whatever a relevantly balanced amount of larva would be (6?) and kept the delay the same, then it might be more interesting.

or keep the cost the same and reduce the delay... 25 energy for 3 Larva... in the next 15 sec.

Making it Stackable would also be interesting... my Queen with 100 energy spawns 12 Larva on a Hatchery about 40 seconds before my Spire comes up.

Also spell tension creates alteratives which add some degree of fun... player X is saving up energy for Mass Transfusion for his large air units (Corrupters, BL, Mutas even), but player B is going for Spawn Larvas, Player C is going for Creep to speed up his Hydras and Roaches.

[Aldrius]

None of that would make it all that interesting... it'd just make it more powerful, or make it take even MORE attention and focus to use effectively. For very little trade-off as far as interesting uses of the ability goes.

Also spell tension creates alteratives which add some degree of fun.

No it doesn't. It just makes the game more strategic.

It works for the Orbital Command for a number of reasons, but I have higher standards for the Queen than simple energy tension.

[n00bonicPlague]

I'm worried that the Terrans have far more macro to do than the other two races. This is particularly because of the fact that they have not only the macro mechanics MULE, AddSup, and Scanner but also switching training buildings between Reactors and Tech Labs, which requires a significant amount of attention. All the Protoss and Zerg have to do is pop CB and SL on the buildings they need and be done with it. Everything else can be done from control groups. Any thoughts on this?