Macro Mechanics Discussion Thread

[ArcherofAiur]

Archer, just shut up. You claim PC is fine, and are backed up by no evidence. You try to discredit any evidence it's broken by stating the game is still in beta, and then refuse to acknowledge that argument when its used against your position PC is balance-able. You are a hypocrite and a fraud. Shut up and stop sucking TL's tit.

I am not claiming PC is fine. Im not claiming PC is not fine. Ive pointed that out to you many times so its clear at this point your trying to mischarectorize my position. Im claiming that what youve presented is not a good case for PC being imbalancable.

Im claiming that you dont have a good understanding of what balance means in Starcraft. You are completly oblivious to the fact that Starcraft is a game of balanced imbalances. All races do not follow the same economic pathways. Its like your looking at the first 4 minutes of a Starcraft game and assuming thats how the rest of the game works.

To be honest I think you need to play more or at the very least watch a couple games on Gomtv. Really take a look at how balance works in Starcraft.

Now answer the question. Which is better for determining if something is balanced or not balanced in Starcraft 2? Which accuratly reflects all the factors and variables? Your excell sheet or the actual game.

[DemolitionSquid]

I am not claiming PC is fine. Im not claiming PC is not fine. Im claiming that you dont have a any understanding of what balance means in Starcraft. You are completly oblivious to the fact that Starcraft is a game of balanced imbalances. To be honest I think you need to play more or at the very least watch a couple games on Gomtv. Really take a look at how balance works in Starcraft.

Unfounded accusation. I have watched plenty of pro games. I full understand "balanced imbalances."

All races do not follow the same economic pathways. Its like your looking at the first 4 minutes of a Starcraft game and assuming thats how the rest of the game works.

Another unfounded accusation.

Now answer the question which is better for determining if something is balanced or not balanced in Starcraft 2? Which accurately reflects all the factors and variable? Your excell sheet or the actual game.

The actual game, but you haven't played it either, so between the two of us who has the most evidence to support their position?

Oh, right. Its me.

[ArcherofAiur]

Unfounded accusation. I have watched plenty of pro games. I full understand "balanced imbalances."

Do you want me to provide examples where one race out resources another race?

The actual game, but you haven't played it either, so between the two of us who has the most evidence to support their position?

Oh, right. Its me.

Id say Dustin. Here do me a favor. Make an excell sheet for Starcraft 1 and we will see how accurately it models a professional game. We will see all the other factors that influence how many minerals a race gets.

[DemolitionSquid]

Do you want me to provide examples where one race out resources another race?

There's no need, since I myself have stated many times, even in my article, that Zerg need to out-resource in SC1. Which they can't do in SC2, fyi.

Id say Dustin.

You mean the guy who agrees PC is broken?

Here do me a favor. Make an excell sheet for Starcraft 1 and we will see how accurately it a professional game. We will see all the other factors that influence how many minerals a race gets.

You mean other factors like like worker build time I purposely left out because my calculations showed they were irrelevant?

You are so full of shit.

[ArcherofAiur]

There's no need, since I myself have stated many times, even in my article, that Zerg need to out-resource in SC1. Which they can't do in SC2, fyi.

Zerg cant out resource? I assume you mean zerg need to stay ahead in expansions. Is that what your saying?

You mean the guy who agrees PC is broken?

Dustin has never said PC is a balancing problem. He says its uninteresting and has poor competition with the other abilities. Your mischarectorizing again.

You mean other factors like like worker build time I purposely left out because my calculations showed they were irrelevant?

I mean like all the other factors. There are allot and their significance is huge. How can you possible expect to model resource intake without taking into account when you can expand? Like seriously.

Anyway make your lil excell sheet for SC1 and we will see how accurate it is.

[DemolitionSquid]

Zerg cant out resource? I assume you mean zerg need to stay ahead in expansions. Is that what your saying?

Obviously. At equal expansions, Zerg will be behind Protoss and Terran by a noticeable margin.

Dustin has never said PC is a balancing problem. He says its uninteresting and has poor competition with the other abilities. Your mis-characterizing again.

He has said that the mechanics appear unbalanced in the math, even before my editorial, but haven't shown so in play testing. This is because no one is actually using them all the time, as they are meant to be used.

Anyway make your lil excell sheet for SC1 and we will see how accurate it is.

I've done enough math and graphing on the issue. Lets see you produce some evidence for a change, eh?

[ArcherofAiur]

Obviously. At equal expansions, Zerg will be behind Protoss and Terran by a noticeable margin.

Actual Dustin quote "if the zerg expand, there fine"
Just like in Starcraft 1 the zerg expand sooner then the other races.

He has said that the mechanics appear unbalanced in the math, even before my editorial, but haven't shown so in play testing. This is because no one is actually using them all the time, as they are meant to be used.

Where the hell are you getting that from?

I've done enough math and graphing on the issue. Lets see you produce some evidence for a change, eh?

You want me to make a math equation that proves my point that you cant modeling Starcraft without taking into account expansions? OK.

Y= # SCVs
M=30 second build time
X=Game Time

Y=X/M

At 30 minutes game time you would have 60 SCVs and would be mining the same amount as you were around minute 12. Does this happen in Starcraft? Of course not.

[RODTHEGOD]

Dsquid stop being a dick. Your conclusions are flaud and you obviously can't see them because you based all your "evidence" around your side of the argument. If I want to I can come up with graphs and equations to support my side of the argument too (and I actually am working on it by the way) so just keep your self righteous bullshit to yourself

[DemolitionSquid]

Actual Dustin quote "if the zerg expand, there fine"
Just like in Starcraft 1 the zerg expand sooner then the other races.

In SC1, Zerg needed more expos to fairly compete. With PC, they'll need more expos just to survive.

Where the hell are you getting that from?

The same place I got it the other 15 times I've mentioned it, which you've clearly ignored or been too blind to see.

You want me to make a math equation that proves my point that you cant modeling Starcraft without taking into account expansions? OK.

Y= # SCVs
M=30 second build time
X=Game Time

Y=X/M

At 30 minutes game time you would have 60 SCVs and would be mining the same amount as you were around minute 12. Does this happen in Starcraft? Of course not.

We both know that's not what I meant. Stop sidestepping the issue. You have NO equatable proof of your position. No solid evidence, only theory without numbers and the opinions of TL, who ironically can only think of the game in numbers and yet provide none.

[ArcherofAiur]

In SC1, Zerg needed more expos to fairly compete. With PC, they'll need more expos just to survive.

Competeing and surviving are different? lol i dont know if you know this but in SC1 the zerg need to stay ahead an expo to survive. Seriously dude, Gomtv is your friend.

The same place I got it the other 15 times I've mentioned it, which you've clearly ignored or been too blind to see.

You dont have a quote. He never said there was a problem with the math. Stop making stuff up.

We both know that's not what I meant. Stop sidestepping the issue. You have NO equatable proof of your position. No solid evidence, only theory without numbers and the opinions of TL, who ironically can only think of the game in numbers and yet provide none.

I just showed you that making equations without factoring in expanding is flawed. You obviously dont like it and have reverted to your typical responce of throwing a tantrum.