Macro Mechanics Discussion Thread

[mr. peasant]

But Supply Drop happens right now. Mules take a while to mine the 100+ minerals that pay for a Supply Depot. The Mule is better in the long run, but the supply drop is an immediate effect. If you need 100+ minerals worth of supply right now, then it is very much worthwhile.

Question is, when do you ever need immediate access to supply save for when you accidentally forgot to build your Depots ahead of time. The Terrans don't have any mechanic to take advantage of instant supply. Even with supply at the ready, something else will play the rate limiting factor with a significant delay.

Supply drops makes even less sense on the Protoss.
It's not even hard to keep up with supply for the Protoss, it's just part of building your base.

Being able to instantly raise your supply is useful for the Protoss as they are also able to instantly produce units using Warp-In. Hence, coupling the two together allows you to raise units in time for an attack, etc.

[flabortast]

I'd say Instant supply is very good for off timing builds. It takes time for depots to build. Supply Calldown is instant. You can fast tech to starports and have supply for Banshees in less time. I already thought of fast 2 port banshees using supply calldown to save money and provide supply for incoming troops right away. Money usually spent on supply depots would go into 2 early tech labs on you barracks and Factory so the 2 Starports you build have tech labs ready as they are built. I can see many useful off timing builds with this.

[Aldrius]

The Terrans don't have any mechanic to take advantage of instant supply.

Except... building units. They do build units pretty quickly, especially with the new reactor add-on.

Protoss really have the easiest to manage supply. It takes 100 minerals and nothing else. No larvae, no worker. I can see the merit in dropping supply then warping in soldiers, but supply just isn't as useful overall for Protoss as it is for Terran.

[Nicol Bolas]

Question is, when do you ever need immediate access to supply save for when you accidentally forgot to build your Depots ahead of time.

When you deliberately fail to build Depots ahead of time, choosing to rely on Supply Drop instead. Supply Drop allows you to throw your enemy off your timing. It speeds you up by 8 supply and 100+ minerals. Do it 3 times, and that's 6+ Marines worth of minerals and 24 supply worth of units period, and it's faster than you would have had without it.

It speeds up a portion of your growth curve; if your enemy is unaware of it, then it can make your "low tide" stronger than they expect for their timing attack, or make your "high tide" more powerful than they can stand against.

I already thought of fast 2 port banshees using supply calldown to save money and provide supply for incoming troops right away.

I've been thinking about this one-base massive Reaper/Banshee harassment build, but I never thought of using supply drop with it. It would definitely help speed things along more than Mules. And speed is absolutely critical with such a build; you need to get those units out there and into the enemy mineral patches ASAP.

[MattII]

Supply Drop also provides a long-run advantage of 100 minerals (provided the Depot survives), ie, it might be the difference between getting 9000 Minerals out of a base, or 8700 if you have to build a trio of Depots to support your workers.

[PsiWarp]

Hmm, what about the preservation of existing Pylons?

Flux Module (50 energy, mapwide selection): The addition of a Flux Module on a Pylon causes its crystal core to emit a stronger gravitational and magnetic field, which attracts projectiles and even energy attacks while phasing the main mechanism from harm. The Flux Module minimizes damage dealt to the mainframe while overloading the crystal core, which implodes into warp space. The mainframe acts as a beacon to call forth a new Pylon crystal, during the process of which Pylon power is lost.

Gameplay-wise, this is basically granting a free "Mechanical Rebirth" for the select Pylon. Once the Pylon's HP reaches 0, the Pylon mainframe will remain, which cannot be attacked (temporary invulnerability). After 10 seconds, the module will finish warping in a new Pylon crystal and starts to provide Pylon power and Psi/Supply again, but without shield support (must naturally regenerate).

Flux Module only guarantees Mechanical Rebirth once, after that you must cast again on the same Pylon. Flux Module is also permanent until the Pylon is destroyed, so there's no time limit as to when a Pylon loses the module's benefits. A moduled Pylon will look slightly different (mainframe opened), and some neat little animations of the mainframe phasing.
- - -
Pros:
1) Can be used on any player owned Pylon, anywhere.
2) Saves a Pylon from one-time destruction.
3) Time and invulnerability as discouragement factor to enemy player.

Cons:
1) 0 shield upon reactivation of Pylon.
2) Cannot cast twice on a moduled Pylon, until it has been destroyed once.
3) Pylon power and Psi not provided during 10 seconds reactivation period.

I think this ability does create some energy tension and decision making. A player must decide on either retaking a position at risk of losing a Probe (losing Pylon and Probe equal to 150 minerals), or preserving constantly threatened proxy pylons (100 minerals not flushed down the toliet)?


-Psi

[mr. peasant]

When you deliberately fail to build Depots ahead of time, choosing to rely on Supply Drop instead. Supply Drop allows you to throw your enemy off your timing. It speeds you up by 8 supply and 100+ minerals. Do it 3 times, and that's 6+ Marines worth of minerals and 24 supply worth of units period, and it's faster than you would have had without it.

You're counting it twice. Supply Drop only gives you 8 supply and 100+ minerals only when compared to if you built a Depot and didn't get any supplies out of it (which is impossible). The resources you 'saved' by getting free supply via Supply Drop can be obtained by building a Depot using the minerals mined by a MULE. If I recall correctly, Karune mentioned somewhere on this thread that MULEs are cost-wise more efficient than Supply Drop.

As for the various other benefits of Supply Drop that have been described, they aren't specific to Terrans. Things like altering growth pattern, etc. also occur if Supply Drop was given to the Protoss or Zerg. However, the benefit of instant supply is best taken advantage of by the Protoss. Firstly, they have Warp-in to instantly produce units. Secondly, they are the most supply-intensive race. Only 4 grunts can be produced per Pylon, compared to 8 for the Terrans and 16 for the Zerg.

As for lore, it can be easily explained as the infusion of Void energies. I mean, look what happened every time Khala and Void energies intermix? We got the Shakuras Xel'naga Temple! That kind of raw energy can most definitely explain the boost in psi. If needed, increasing the surface area covered by the Pylon could also be a feature.

[ArcherofAiur]

Just a point that people may have missed. If we allow the Nexus to upgrade pylons to dark pylons you are getting something that you couldnt get no matter how many proton charges you did. Like Creep Tumor (and unlike Calldown Supply) its an alternate pathway. Provided the ability is useful, and I think it is, this highly incentivises the player to choose this option over PC depending on the circumstances.


Upgrade Pylon to Dark Pylon
Dark Pylon: +4 supply, 100 energy, Argus Link

[Aldrius]

Just a point that people may have missed. If we allow the Nexus to upgrade pylons to dark pylons you are getting something that you couldnt get no matter how many proton charges you did. Like Creep Tumor (and unlike Calldown Supply) its an alternate pathway. Provided the ability is useful, and I think it is, this highly incentivises the player to choose this option over PC depending on the circumstances.


Upgrade Pylon to Dark Pylon
Dark Pylon: +4 supply, 100 energy, Argus Link

It might work, but it's a really strange ability mechanically. Again, Supply isn't something Protoss are clamoring for. Also, it's actually very similar to the Overlord -> Overseer relationship, just in the form of a building (and requiring an ability from a Nexus upgrade?). Not similar enough to say it removes racial diversity, but still.

As for the various other benefits of Supply Drop that have been described, they aren't specific to Terrans. Things like altering growth pattern, etc. also occur if Supply Drop was given to the Protoss or Zerg. However, the benefit of instant supply is best taken advantage of by the Protoss. Firstly, they have Warp-in to instantly produce units. Secondly, they are the most supply-intensive race. Only 4 grunts can be produced per Pylon, compared to 8 for the Terrans and 16 for the Zerg.

That really doesn't make them the most supply-intensive race, though.

Zerg generally need 16 zerglings to compete with the Protoss' 4 zealots. It's very balanced in that way. They're all pretty even when it comes to the demands of supply. (Heck, if anything Zerg is the worst due to how quickly they produce a large volume of units.)

On the other hand, when it comes to actually making supply, the Terrans have it the worst I'd say. New spawn larvae ability gives the Zerg the ability to produce more Overlords, while Protoss have always been able to make a large capacity of pylons rather quickly.

[Pandonetho]

Question is, when do you ever need immediate access to supply save for when you accidentally forgot to build your Depots ahead of time. The Terrans don't have any mechanic to take advantage of instant supply. Even with supply at the ready, something else will play the rate limiting factor with a significant delay.

It can alter and bring up completely new build orders. And when supplies are destroyed, they can be immediately replaced.

Being able to instantly raise your supply is useful for the Protoss as they are also able to instantly produce units using Warp-In. Hence, coupling the two together allows you to raise units in time for an attack, etc.

You do know... with the fact that Protoss have a much easier time dealing with supply, that warpgates have a cooldown as well? Just because you warped something in and immediately raised supply doesn't mean the cooldown is immediately reset. It's just the "inverse" of a gateway with "less cooldown time" than the gateway, + warpin.

Supply drop just doesn't work that well with Protoss.
It takes multiple SCVs to replace multiple lost supply depots. A probe can easily replace lost pylons just by building them anywhere, as they provide pylon power as well as a place for warp-in.

Just because Protoss units cost more psi doesn't mean they're the most supply intensive. Protoss players have no problems in SC1 with keeping up with supply, I don't see why it would change in SC2.