More questionable changes coming in 1.2!

[Maul]

Siege Tanks now have a random delay inbetween firing that is so small it's unnoticeable, so they no longer will fire on a target unnecessarily (ie overkill), so despite the actual damage nerf they, for the most part, are still as good as in BW.

[unentschieden]

Tanks are much better because thenew pathfinding makes units clump up more.

People complaining about the Marauder never seem to consider how central they are to Terrans. Yeah you see them all the time but thats because they are NEEDED all the time. For how much they may do against buildings - what is the next best unit Terrans have against buildings? Reapers? Tanks?

Blizzard is reluctant to change Marauders because that would change the whole Terran race around them. Reapers are a much more specialized strategy and somewhat isolated from the rest of the Terran strategys.

[spychi]

Some... interesting changes. I am surprised nobody has questioned their statistics.
ie:
At the bronze level (accounting for player skill)
45.4% win rate for Terran when fighting Zerg.

How exactly do they "account for player skill"? Isnt the "player skill" supposed to be established by the hidden rating? Are the raw numbers different?

I just find it hard to believe that terran loses more often at the bronze level against zerg when zerg is so much more of a mechanics race and at the bronze level, mechanics are where you generally lack.

ugh... in bronze there is alot of cheese, so there is alot of 6pool, 7pool, bane busts or mass muta

[RamiZ]

Tanks are much better because thenew pathfinding makes units clump up more.

People complaining about the Marauder never seem to consider how central they are to Terrans. Yeah you see them all the time but thats because they are NEEDED all the time. For how much they may do against buildings - what is the next best unit Terrans have against buildings? Reapers? Tanks?

Blizzard is reluctant to change Marauders because that would change the whole Terran race around them. Reapers are a much more specialized strategy and somewhat isolated from the rest of the Terran strategys.

Oh come on now... In GSL, Terran players didn't even make Marauders vs. Zerg, and yet, there was 3 Terrans in semi-finals. That also doesn't mean that they are op vs. units, but vs. buildings they are. And that also doesn't mean that they are backbone of the Terran army, like all of you are making out to be. Maybe vs. Protoss they are, vs. Zerg, they aren't.

And I would also like to be able to drop 4 Roaches or 4 Stalkers at the enemy base, and kill it in few shots, with stim... And don't come up with "What is the best unit Terran has against buildings?" when Marines with stim also do great damage to buildings, Reapers and Tanks too. Marauders are for their cost way out of line. And I won't even name how many units you already have to kill workers...

What I meant is, stalkers BARELY beat roaches as it is now.. with increased range, stalkers are going to be pretty much useless mid/late game.. Immortals dont attack nearly fast enough to deal with 50+ roaches coming in your face.

Big mistake IMO, roaches are very strong as they are right now to the point where most zergs just mass only roaches and still can compete.. example; Team EG vs Team Root, the game of Axslav vs SLush, Axslav has 3 base but SLush keeps massing roaches, only roaches, and wins. Of course, Slush is probably the best roach masser outside of korea, but still Axslav had no chance beating it without getting air.

I saw that game Skyze, but seriously, Axslav could've played a lot better. I mean he constantly kept making mistakes like making a lot of Sentries, and he already saw that Roaches had burrowed movement. He started to make Archons for god knows what reason, when Immortals are far better. And every fight, Slush had like 50 Roaches, vs. army of 25-30 units of Protoss, and barely 6-10 Roaches survived. Yet, Protoss didn't have the right combination of units, and constantly kept spending his gas to units like Dark Templars, High Templars for Archons(!?) and Sentries. That is just my point of view, I also watched the game where Dimaga lost to KiwiKaki(I think...) With mass Roaches and only thing Kiwi got was Stalkers with few Sentries.

That is the whole point, you can't just watch one game and say "omg that is broken, he couldn't do anything" when it is clear that he could.

[Skyze]

not saying he couldnt do anything, Axslav sure could of played much better, but my point was that he had one unit combo take out 5-6 units from protoss, and that Axslav had the earlygame advantage too but it was lost when the mass roaches came. In order for protoss to maintain EVEN with mass roaches, you need to use forcefields VERY VERY good.. Now that the range is buffed, forcefields will be less effective by a large margin, and mass roaches is all we are going to see in ZvP because its going to be even harder to stop than it already is (as shown in that game, roaches are still very strong. That was my point, a buff is NOT necessary)

Its fine how it is right now.. why not fix Marauders, the root of the issue, and leave roaches how they are.

If they are gonna buff roaches, at least buff archons so they arent totally useless and can counter mass mutas like in BW?? Mass mutas are retardedly good in SC2 since toss has no AOE for anti-air (storm blows)

[Todie]

The roach buff seems kinnd of big, but we dont know if its 0.5 or 1 range increase.. i think a 0.5 increase might be rather fine.

... i think "stalkers are usless now" is a gross overreaction; they move faster, range longer and shoot harder vs armored than roaches do: theyre gonna stay versatile and usefull. it mgiht not be the same "get enoughs talkers and youre fine vs mass roach" thing as before, but still.

what does a roach range buff do to p's FE though? canon behind gateway & 1 hex of air will no longer be safely out of range of roaches if its a 1hex range increase?

about the terran nerfs, im more surprised at everyone's lack of understanding: from where im standing its been common consensus that terran has felt frustrating to play against largely due to having so many options. adding some tech requiremens limits their early options and as such it might brake open some matchups. but overall im actually just quite glad theyre making this type of changes - and making them for partially other reasons than fixing numerical imbalance - "improvements are necessary to make zerg matchups feel and play better."

weather it actually brakes some matchups remains to be seen; if so, that can probably be fixed with some additional tweaks...

[Norfindel]

I'm surprised there are no balance changes for the void ray. Once massed, nothing can kill them.

I have always been of the idea that this unit needs to be more "normal". It's too cheesy, people are doing things like attacking themselves to get a charge before attacking the enemy, and with good reason, the uncharged attack is so shitty, the range so short, and the charged attack so powerful, than there isn't really any middle ground. Uncharged, if the enemy has anti-air there, they're outright destroyed. Charged, they mean pure death. And they're so expensive.

IMHO, this unit needs substantial changes, and that should had been noted in beta, or even before. The mechanic is interesting, but the end result is a very expensive unit that either gets destroyed without doing anything, or level a base in seconds, depending on the situation.

[0mar]

... i think "stalkers are usless now" is a gross overreaction; they move faster, range longer and shoot harder vs armored than roaches do: theyre gonna stay versatile and usefull. it mgiht not be the same "get enoughs talkers and youre fine vs mass roach" thing as before, but still.

Stalkers lose to every unit in the game with respect to cost with only a few exceptions (ling, muta). If they have a big enough ball, then lings don't kill them. That's about it. Stalkers are really the worst tier 1.5 unit there is.

Also, stalkers do less damage than roaches (10/14 vs 16) and are only faster before roaches get their speed upgrade.

[RamiZ]

Stalkers lose to every unit in the game with respect to cost with only a few exceptions (ling, muta). If they have a big enough ball, then lings don't kill them. That's about it. Stalkers are really the worst tier 1.5 unit there is.

Also, stalkers do less damage than roaches (10/14 vs 16) and are only faster before roaches get their speed upgrade.

And I like how you pretend like they can't shoot air. And also, when I can upgrade Roach speed, you can upgrade Blink, and again you are able to kite, or to chase better than Roaches, also, I don't even wanna start on cliff climbing with Blink.

When they lose to every unit, why are pros doing pure Stalker build vs. Zergs and doing so fucking good against Zergs? Stalkers are really hard to stop once you reach good amount of them.

I think that 4 range Roaches won't be as big in Stalker vs. Roach fight as you guys think, but will help in other aspects. If it will be that gamebreaking, Blizzard will fix it.

As I said before, the only real thing that got me worried is nerfing Reapers to the ground and making them basically only good for scouting.

[senervo]

hm... seems to me that blizzard has taken in the common wall-off with 2 depots and a rax as their main interest and now feel that all players have to stick with it...

i am usually not a fan of recieving cheese builds and i don't really like the terran faction (for many reasons) but this will seriously harm the terran early play with any kind of cheese, or even sneak play without that early depot, which in time will already have allowed the construction of a gateway or a spawning pool...

in other words...

DIE HUMANS!! DIE!!!!