Expansion Units

[Wankey]

@Wankey

Roaches are fine as they are. With 2 Armor at the start they would be back to their "overpowered" status and you wouldn't see Zerglings openings at all.

Yeah I guess that's pointless. The roach is still an anomaly in the game design...

To be honest, I'm not hoping for a lot of good design ideas to come out of Blizzard. The overall game design of philosophy of SC2 has really no general philosophy and feels incredibly hacked together. The solutions offered are really narrow minded and doesn't expand more than it was designed to be.

Dustin Browder is no James Phinney when it comes to game design, and the rest of Blizzard's original talent is happily sitting in their World of Warcraft throne or working on the next gen MMO where the real money's at.

It seems to me, Blizzard game design is simply who can argue their point better or use some weird argument point to make their point stand out, rather than proving the point doesn't work. Look at the viking for instance, where is the risk in that unit? It's got ridiculous range, and does decent damage and transforms to do decent damage again on the ground. Where is any risk in that?

Look at the Phoenix, compared to the corsair, the phoenix obliterates it in power but lacks in heavily in design and playability. Phoenix does 20 damage to light, the fastest unit in the game, and fires on the move. Where's the risk? It's only anti-air, BUT WAIT! Lets give it a floaty skill to negate that risk. There is no real gameplay when it comes to phoenix. With the corsair, if they're harassing your overlords or mutas, you can counter with the smallest smatter of ground troops. Not with the phoenix, they'll pick them up and do away with them, and continue to harass. That in a sense makes no sense nor does it create fun and interesting gameplay.

I can go on and on about SC2 game design and the lack of risk vs reward but it's beating a dead horse. I highly doubt HotS will fix any of these issues as these poor game design decisions have been ingrained into the current status quo and players have adjusted in using these units. It probably won't be LotV before they realize the overall grand scheme of things and really do a big work over the overall balance and game design.

Then again, the community these days no longer really care about good game design as DotA of all things have shone. That's probably one of the worst designed games out there and usually why there is so much rage associated with it.

Nobody in the last 2000 years has blamed chess for their loss have they?

[Triceron]

SC2 is still a new game, and it's not as finely tuned as SC1 was but it's still pretty damned close on the overall. There are few anomolies, but things like the phoenix aren't the big issue. If you break it down, the phoenix has the same potential of harassing and countering as any other unit, and its flaws are the fact that it is limited to being anti-air only. Even a Banshee or Mutalisk has more potential to completely turn the tide of a game than the phoenix does.

Overall, SC2's fundamentals are still about solid RTS gameplay. Simply analyzing a unit down to its intended place and role isn't enough to solve balance issues. It takes a lot of time and dedication to finely tune the balance, and I think it's already in a pretty solid direction.

Also, DOTA is team-oriented competitive game, and much of the rage is due to it being a team-oriented competitive game. Play any game out there like CS, L4D, Halo, whatever. There's just as much rage and it's rarely (legitimately) because of game design.

[Amph]

Vikings actually do twice as much damage to Mutalisks than Goliaths did in SC1, 20 vs 10, and they have a longer range (10 vs 8 with Charon Booster).
Their ground mode attack does the same damage, 12. The crippler is that they cost 50 more minerals and 25 more gas than the Goliath did.

And yes, I know I read and replied to TF's post after saying I wouldn't, but it was a great chance to once again prove he's just trolling nonsense.

they have 9 not 10, and they cost like 1.5 time the liath...if you ask me i prefer the liath, really...

goliath also have 1 base armor and they benefit from the same upgrades of the tank and hellion.

also u have not take in consideration the fact that the liath shoot much faster than viking does, therefore it is not correct to say "20vs10", it's more like:

viking 10DPS(20 in two sec)
liath was about the same as a turret, so really fast, 10DPS

they are the same...

in conclusion: viking suck and it's only good at flying lol

[DemolitionSquid]

they have 9 not 10, and they cost like 1.5 time the liath

So, they still have longer range and I already pointed out the cost increase.

goliath also have 1 base armor and they benefit from the same upgrades of the tank and hellion.

Granted, I always wanted the Viking to come from the Factory and be given its Air Mode as an Upgrade. However, you know what else benefits from Viking upgrades? Banshees. Medevacs. Ravens. Freakin Battle Cruisers.

also u have not take in consideration the fact that the liath shoot much faster than viking does, therefore it is not correct to say "20vs10", it's more like:

viking 10DPS(20 in two sec)
liath was about the same as a turret, so really fast, 10DPS

they are the same...

Oh, so I was, again, still right. What a shock.

in conclusion: viking suck and it's only good at flying lol

In conclusion, if you're going to argue with me, it helps to not agree with me on half my points, and use proper punctuation.

[Gradius]

Vikings are only good against mutalisks with support from other units like turrets & marines, and it's more because of their range than their DPS. They are not a counter to mutalisks by themselves. Vikings clump, fire too slow, and don't transition to being main army units like mutalisks do.

And I hope you guys realize that's not how you calculate the correct DPS for the Viking and the Brood War goliath.

[Amph]

So, they still have longer range and I already pointed out the cost increase.



Granted, I always wanted the Viking to come from the Factory and be given its Air Mode as an Upgrade. However, you know what else benefits from Viking upgrades? Banshees. Medevacs. Ravens. Freakin Battle Cruisers.



Oh, so I was, again, still right. What a shock.



In conclusion, if you're going to argue with me, it helps to not agree with me on half my points, and use proper punctuation.

i'm not debating with you, i just made your post more precise...

[Twilice]

Is it possible to like mute a user, possibly wankey.

I bet he even thinks Donkey Kong Country Returns got a bad game design.

[DemolitionSquid]

Is it possible to like mute a user, possibly wankey.

I bet he even thinks Donkey Kong Country Returns got a bad game design.

I have Tychus Findley blocked. Use the Ignore List in your personal settings, works like friend list.

[MulletBen]

Even though he tries to make it seem as though SCII is designed poorly, Wankey actually makes a good point as to why the Viking should in no way be made effective towards mutalisks.

Look at the viking for instance, where is the risk in that unit? It's got ridiculous range, and does decent damage and transforms to do decent damage again on the ground. Where is any risk in that?

The answer to that inquiry surrounds the post on both sides.

[DemolitionSquid]

The Viking is good enough against Mutas as is. It does damn well if you're the kind of prude who absolutely refuses to build Thors, and still makes Marines. That's all there is to it.