Expansion Units

[DemolitionSquid]

I was going to point out all the cost, damage, and dps for Thors and Vikings, but there's really no need.

4 Vikings killing 4 Overlords is 400 minerals, 4 Larva, and 32 supply lost for Zerg. Its pretty much guaranteed damage. If he makes a ton of Queens to fight it off, that puts you ahead. If he makes Spore Crawlers to fight them off, that's even better for you. Every Overlord you kill puts him further and further behind.

4 Vikings coming out of a Starport you should have for Medevacs anyway, and will have to carry your slow Thors, costs less than 2 Thors out of a Factory with Armory. That extra gas can then go to upgrading Infernal Preigniter for the Hellions you're making with your empty Factory to kill his Zerglings, or for Marauders to kill his Roaches.

Did I say that Vikings are better than Thors at killing Mutalisks? No. But they are better at killing Overlords, and decent at killing Mutalisks. Which is why I said they fucking own, because if you're flying around picking off his Overlords while the army you'd have anyway supporting your Thors is doing what it always does anyway, he will likely never get to tech to Mutalisks in the first place, or produce them in large numbers with what little supply and free Larva you're giving him access to.

I mean, really, when you Thor rush, does the Zerg usually have Mutas out by then? Of course not. Now imagine skipping the Armory and Thor and Medevac and just getting 4 Vikings to supply cap the shit out of him. Can't you already feel Idra's rage?

[MulletBen]

Vikings do much less ground damage than thors or marines, and also less damage to mutas. As a counter to mutas, you should only build them if you already have a starport. In fact, in many situations, it's better to make more medivacs to heal your marines.

There is no reason to make spore crawlers, because unlike banshees, which harass drones, overlords don't actually need to be anywhere. He can easily pump out 2 more queens, which build very rapidly, then use them to spread creep afterwards, so they aren't wasted (or use them at his next expansion and the extra in-base hatch he will need for 2 base muta/ling). The point is, viking harass dropped off during beta because it was too easy to defend. Unlike with Phoenix, if you have a hard time dealing with his viking harass, you can actually build mutas to counter them (the correct counter would of course be hydras, but you can use your mutas to harass him as well).

[DemolitionSquid]

Vikings do much less ground damage than thors or marines, and also less damage to mutas. As a counter to mutas, you should only build them if you already have a starport. In fact, in many situations, it's better to make more medivacs to heal your marines.

There is no reason to make spore crawlers, because unlike banshees, which harass drones, overlords don't actually need to be anywhere. He can easily pump out 2 more queens, which build very rapidly, then use them to spread creep afterwards, so they aren't wasted (or use them at his next expansion and the extra in-base hatch he will need for 2 base muta/ling). The point is, viking harass dropped off during beta because it was too easy to defend. Unlike with Phoenix, if you have a hard time dealing with his viking harass, you can actually build mutas to counter them (the correct counter would of course be hydras, but you can use your mutas to harass him as well).

I KNOW ALL THIS! OMFG!

Hyde said he hated Thors, and I said Vikings offer a decent alternative and are fucking awesome units in general, and now you're all acting like I said Vikings are better than Thors against Mutas which I NEVER SAID. This is bullshit, you're all trolling me aren't you? Asshats.

[MulletBen]

Yes, they are worse vs. mutas than thors. But during no part of my post did I say that, because I know you know that, having said it in another post.

You said

Vikings offer a decent alternative and are fucking awesome units in general

Your reasoning being

they fucking own, because if you're flying around picking off his Overlords while the army you'd have anyway supporting your Thors is doing what it always does anyway, he will likely never get to tech to Mutalisks in the first place, or produce them in large numbers with what little supply and free Larva you're giving him access to.

To which I responded with

He can easily pump out 2 more queens, which build very rapidly, then use them to spread creep afterwards, so they aren't wasted (or use them at his next expansion and the extra in-base hatch he will need for 2 base muta/ling). The point is, viking harass dropped off during beta because it was too easy to defend.

There. You made a point, and after some enticing, offered an argument. I made a counterargument. If you can make an argument to counter that counterargument, then do so. If you read my post, I mention Thors exactly once, in the first sentance, along with the other anti-muta option, the marine. Perhaps you should read the other sentences as well. you know, the ones you

I KNOW ALL THIS! OMFG!

If he makes Spore Crawlers to fight them off,

There is no reason to make spore crawlers, because unlike banshees, which harass drones, overlords don't actually need to be anywhere.

If he makes a ton of Queens to fight it off, that puts you ahead.

He can easily pump out 2 more queens, which build very rapidly, then use them to spread creep afterwards, so they aren't wasted (or use them at his next expansion and the extra in-base hatch he will need for 2 base muta/ling).

he will likely never get to tech to Mutalisks in the first place, or produce them in large numbers with what little supply and free Larva you're giving him access to.

Unlike with Phoenix, if you have a hard time dealing with his viking harass, you can actually build mutas to counter them (the correct counter would of course be hydras, but you can use your mutas to harass him as well).

[DemolitionSquid]

*facepalm*

I try to help Hyde and I get lambasted by this bullshit. Fuck it.

[TheEconomist]

Try to listen Squid. I'm not saying make a bunch of Queens. I fended off 3 Vikings very, very, very easily with the standard two Queens, four would be no differnt.

Let's back up though. This situation is very rare. It is very rare for a Terran to have four Vikings before a Zerg player has at least four Mutalisks (given larva) but, even if that did happen, Queens (just two) are enough to fight off a few Vikings. This isn't theorycrafting, I have done this numerous times. Either way, even if the Viking attack is moderately effective, you're still behind because you haven't been keeping with production for your main army. You are putting yourself behind and that's all there is to it. This may work in lower leagues, but definitely not in high Platinum+.

I am, however, atleast glad that you actually thought this one through instead of acting emotionally.

I try to help Hyde and I get lambasted by this bullshit. Fuck it.

No, you talked out of your ass as you usually do. Only this time, you had me unblocked and responded. Which, therefore, opened the flood gates for people to share with you their knowledge and opinion. It isn't our fault that you can't handle a challenge to your wild speculation.

I recommend you stick your head in the sand once again (block me) so that you don't have to witness the indignity of a challenge to your opinion.

If you can make an argument to counter that counterargument, then do so.

Squid is happy to offer his countarguments but should you dare challenge him in the same way, he will either insult you, dodge, brush it off, backpedal, or change the subject. I have seen him do it all numerous times. Take my advice: there's nothing that can get through to him.

[mythology]

you know i'm kind of wondering about the spectre and blizzard's unusual attention towards it. bringing back a dead enemy from a dead game is kinda suspicious to me. nova i can understand as she was a hero character.

maybe the choice of choosing nova or tosh was to purposely show how spectres are different from ghosts if blizzard ever intended to add them. i'm sure in multiplayer the spectre would not have nuke considering it's psionic lash. maybe a tosh ability to replace that.

in sc1 the ghost was at the end of the tech tree, but now the ghost has moved a lot closer. because of this, the spectre could take the ghost's old place next to the battle cruiser.

[TheEconomist]

Ghosts and Spectres are too similar to be included in melee. They're simply a unit for the lore. Adding them both would be like having a Hellion and Vulture.

[mythology]

Ghosts and Spectres are too different to be included in melee. They're simply a unit for the lore. Adding them both would be like having a Hellion and Vulture.

wouldn't be blizzard's first time of adding a unit of lore as an expansion unit. would be the 4th time.

i don't get the hellion and vulture thing. you saying they too much a like to be different?

[TheEconomist]

I never said they didn't add units of lore. Dark Templars are a great example.

I only said Ghosts and Spectres are too similar. Blizzard keeps each unit unique.