Expansion Units

[TheEconomist]

When he's "simply stating a fact" that I stated as well he's agreeing with me.

And, now, this should end.

I, too, am hoping the new units aim to make mirror match ups more engaging. TvT is very dynamic and there's so many different paths. I hope the others can be like this too. Not sure it's possible, though, given the other race's traits.

[Todie]

No, he's not. He's saying they "fucking own" Mutalisks which is far from the truth. I was simply arguing my point. I only went off on other side things because he said that I "was trolling nonsense" and it annoys me how he can argue with top ladder players (not me) when he plays a game every once in a blue moon and is a lower league.

You misunderstand the conversation and have only read his back pedaling. Read what he said before he started to try to change his tone. Also, TvT and TvP are irrelevant to the conservation concerning "Mutalisks vs Vikings". Why do people keep bringing it up?

i did read the whole thing before posting.

I think its quite obvious that both remarks youre taking issue with are sensationalistic hyperboles; "vikings own" and "you are trolling nonsense"

So they aren't instant win against Mutalisks? So you agree with me? What's the purpose of your post? You need to read from the beginning; not just the side steps that came after I showed him his fallacy and others disagreed with him.

It appears, to you its all about whos right and whos wrong? ; what im saying is that there is no glaring contradiction in what you are saying and what DS is saying (at least the underlying meaning of it) ... the original point of that discussion was that vikings are fine vs mutas as is; they can actually be helpful (only with marines, only in moderation & esp in situations when they're more acessible than Thors, etc..)
... thats a relevant point considering the suggestion made earlier:

I know! give Vikings a research for Valkyrian Missile Array, gives the vikings a new attack vs light units, (attack effect similar to Valkyries in BW) only used against light Air

.. A suggestion so bad that im not sure if it was serious at all.


as for the trolling nonsense one way or the other, i best not meddle with it at all. let me just say, Silly.



as to get on-topic, personally i feel seriously uninspired; the current metagame has become so real to me that whenever i see a suggestion or think of something, it feels like this something would be sure to trash the metagame completely. but thats actually fine as an ex-pack can be allowed to largely revamp the metagame and innovations on all sides can balance each-other out..


even so, i havnt particularly liked an idea posted here that i can recall...

i think we need to get back to basics; improve on basic racial mechanics. sharing or boosted regeneration or max value of P shield / energy values?

one or two new queen abilities; one to make her walk faster off-creep? (costing 50-75 energy or 25+draining energy like T cloak)

its harder to think of something new for T; it feels lie whatever gimmick i think of, it'll surely overlap with something they already have and also, part of me is like "they dont need more" ... but is that fair at all? ..... i guess they should get some new OC ability at least, but what??
(for the record, waypoint drop-pods as mentioned earlier in this thread, would in my humble opinion be ridiculously hard to balance/ massively overpowered; warpin on steroids indeed)


.... as for new units, it would be cool, but its friggin hard to think of something thats both conceptually cool and could fit into the metagame in some conceivably useful way.

one unit i would like to see is some kind of Hydralisk-evolution (instead of the lurkerer), maybe a "hunter killer" super-hdyra type unit, with 1 longer range than hydra, more damge wih slower speed, but dealing only like half or 1/4 damage if the enemy was closer than half the range (3.5)

another random idea: a ground unit with distinctively different roles when burrowed / unborrowed. I cant think of anything cool unburrowed for now, but like slow or reduce armor of nearby enemies when burrowed.

... just trying to brainstorm a bit. its been a while..

peace.

[DemolitionSquid]

Tychus really needs to get over his hate of me, its clouding his common sense.

Vkings are good as they are, even in TvZ. If you absolutely don't want to make Thors they make an OK substitute, as long as they're properly supported. That's all I've ever said. Giving Vikings a strong anti-light attack would break them.

[TheEconomist]

I'm not like you in that I'm so quick to hate someone over minor things. In fact, we had some decent conversation when you didn't know it was me. Anyways, since you're back pedaling, I'm satisfied with our "debate". It's kind of funny, though, that you would rather brush off my remarks as being pure hate for you instead of taking them into consideration for personal growth ... oh welll ...

Good day.

@Todie: There's still a glaring contradiction, but, in what DSquid said before and after, but I don't really care about that anymore. You understand the two things I was responding to soI am satisfied with our 'debate' too.

[MulletBen]

DSquid exaggerated for effect, Tychus called him out, and then they began insulting each other.

Calm down you two, Mutalisks soft counter vikings. It would be a terrible decision to give vikings an attack that did more damage vs. them.

We cool?

[Gradius]

Meh. Personally I don't think DSquid exaggerated for effect. I've seen him backpedal before and in fact he originally said "the viking owns" and "just get more vikings" if you have problems with mutas. If all he is saying is that there's nothing wrong with the viking, then why state the obvious anyway? DS is used to rampant theorycrafting back from the age of ignorance (2007-2008) when you could just say whatever and get away with it since we didn't have the game in our hands.

[DemolitionSquid]

Hyde: I hate Thors. I want the Goliath back.

Me: Well if you don't want to build Thors, Vikings are still a pretty freakin good replacement.

Tychus: NO THEY'RE NOT YOU'RE FULL OF SHIT I HATE YOU WHAAAAAAA!!!!

Me: Calm the fuck down and get a few Raven PDD's while you're at it.

[Gradius]

You said "just get more vikings" as a solution to mutas, and that "vikings own". Were you exaggerating? Because if you're going to massively exaggerate on all your strategy posts, it will help to clarify what you actually mean when someone calls you out on it. After Tychus pointed out that you will lose if you start massing vikings in response to them, why do you call his post trolling nonsense and start discussing the Viking DPS instead of simply saying that that's not what you meant?

[DemolitionSquid]

It was what I meant; I was not exaggerating. Vikings do "fucking own," even in TvZ. They do as much damage to Mutas as Goliaths did and can actually chase the Mutas down. Sure, a group of Mutas may beat a group of Vikings, but why are you letting him get Mutas in the first place? I see all these players getting fast Medevacs to support their Marines and Marauders, and Banshees to harrass. So I'm really surprised no one is pumping out a few Vikings to kill Overlords early on when in fact Vikings kill Overlords faster than Phoenix do with over 2 times the range.

So, go build some Vikings and pick off some Overlords, then come back here and tell me Vikings blow in TvZ. I don't even play Terran and I know Vikings aren't being used right in TvZ right now.

[TheEconomist]

It's nice to try something out before you say that it should be done It's very hard for a Terran to get enough Vikings before Mutalisks are out to kill enough Overlords to make the cost worth it. If you spend 600/300 just to kill four Overlords that's stupid and you're not even guaranteed to kill that many. Queens would kill the Vikings fairly quickly and that's IF there are no Mutalisk in play which would be rare in higher levels of play. In the early days of beta, I had quite a few Terrans try to harass my Overlords. I quickly took care of them and, at that time, I was an absolutely shitty Zerg player. You'll probably kill less than four but even if you do, you've spent more resources and time than they did to replenish the Overlords. THAT'S why you don't see people doing that anymore. It's so easy to counter and the Terran is already behind (likely) before a major battle even starts.

I'm confident that if you had tried what you are talking about, it wouldn't have work, and, even if it did, that's probably just the result of lower leagues. I wouldn't dream of doing that in a high Diamond game. Even if I'm wrong and it does work in Diamond league, it's far from "owning". By your logic, half of the outcomes of half the units is "owning".

Also, I'm glad you admitted you weren't exaggerating. Now we all just know that you're doing the wild speculation that Gradius said and not just irresponsibly using hyperbole.