Zerg officially suck

[GnaReffotsirk]

TBH, I find T and P's mechanic matching up with what Zs supposed to be good at. The only way Z can even hope to stay at equal footing with T and P is to undermine t and p. I don't think they're reactionary, Z is just broken atm.

[Nicol Bolas]

Is peoples issue with the lack of scout the fact that we have to sac an OL to get that early information?

No, it's the fact that even sacrificing an Overlord doesn't get you any real information. Any Terran worth his salt will have important buildings away from the edges of his base, and will have Marines and Depots stationed around the perimeter to spot and kill off pesky, slow-moving Overlords.

At which point, you will have lost an Overlord for absolutely nothing.

Zerg also has the Changeling to scout.

Which requires an Overseer. Which requires a Lair. Which means the scouting is too late.

Changelings are fine as scouts. The problem is that they're not useful for scouting pre-Lair, when the Zerg is both in the dark and the Zerg really needs critical intel.

[Blazur]

Changelings are fine as scouts. The problem is that they're not useful for scouting pre-Lair, when the Zerg is both in the dark and the Zerg really needs critical intel.

Yeah, but is that a deficiency of the Zerg or a too powerful ability of the Terran's with their wall offs? Terran's have it too easy because they can sit behind their impenetrable wall with little repercussions.

I still argue they need a mid-tier upgrade that allows them to research depot submersion. Put it on par with Zerg burrowing. Then Terran players need to invest resources to properly wall off, or risk blocking themselves in. Sure they can still use unit production buildings, but lifting off is slower than raising depots so enemies can still pour in. Plus it halts unit production.

[Nicol Bolas]

Sure they can still use unit production buildings, but lifting off is slower than raising depots so enemies can still pour in. Plus it halts unit production.

It's not that big of a difference.

The reason the Zerg didn't have this problem in SC1 is because:

1: The Terrans couldn't tech nearly as fast. 1:1:1 was not viable in any way. It cost too much for very little gain. In SC2, with MULEs and swappable tech-labs, getting a StarPort+Lab or two is very quick.

2: Terrans couldn't build units nearly that fast. An early M&M push in SC1 took longer and had fewer units in it than an equivalently early MMM push in SC2. Sunkens also didn't have to content with high Hp units like stimmed Marauders that can dish out fierce damage. Also, Medics weren't Dropships.

3: Zerg always had something they could rely on. Since there was no Banshee equivalent, a defensive Zerg only had to build enough Sunkens and Zerglings to hold off early pushes. Sure, highly skilled Zerg players would cut Sunkens and try to get by with as few as possible. But they would work. Spine Crawlers just aren't good enough compared to what they're up against, and Tier 1 has no anti-air.

[Xeonio]

Please don't educate me on how to play SC2. You and me are not pro or the very highest level of players and to see that in the top 200 there are only 10% Zerg is as telling as it can be.

Zerg have a disadvantage, whether its maps, units, macro mechanic, creep, no GTA T1, its a fact that they are at a disadvantage. What exactly that is no one knows for sure, but as all these discussions progress I'm starting to believe its a bit of everything.
Little sucky with the maps, little sucky with the units, little sucky with the creep, etc... and globally it becomes a big suck and a big disadvantage.

The point here is for Blizzard to realize there is a real hard problem with the Zerg balance and do something about it and not have to wait 1 year until they finally decide to fix it, few months before HOTS comes out.
SC2 is supposed to be an e-sports game and these kind of imbalances need to be fixed fast and good.

If the tournaments and top levels are without Zerg players then SC2 can't be an e-sports game, not even a good multiplayer game.

Whatever Blizzard do, they need to do it fast. Be it buffing the roach, buffing the hydralisk, nerfing something terran, making new pro maps, etc... they need to do it fast, until everyone just stops playing zerg.

My opinion is invalid because I'm not in the top 200 but yours is because when you look at the top 200 US players there aren't enough Zerg in it?

LOL!

You can use whatever numbers you like, you could use the link provided after your post and focus on the 1901-2000 pt range where Zerg are at the lowest. You could also use those numbers to say OMFG Terran are OP, delete them.

Side note... Technically the Queen is GTA and tier 1. Building 2+ will hold off against early air forces until you have mutas or hydras. If you only build one queen, that isn't a fault of the game... it's a fault of your own.

No, it's the fact that even sacrificing an Overlord doesn't get you any real information. Any Terran worth his salt will have important buildings away from the edges of his base, and will have Marines and Depots stationed around the perimeter to spot and kill off pesky, slow-moving Overlords.

You mean good players will position buildings in the spots least likely to get scouted? Just moving an OL near the edge of a Terrans base can reveal so much. Does his first barracks have a tech lab or a reactor? Has that building switched with a new factory? Did he get an early gas when you were in the base with your drone scout? You can only hide so far within your own base that an OL can't see into. I don't hear Toss whining about other Toss or Terran's ability to wall in.

I know I'm not the best player but I'm getting better. Sitting around all day and screaming imbalance hasn't (and won't) make me better at the game.

Actually, do you even play SC2? You spout a lot but I don't see anything that helps to backup your arguments. Just reading what someone else has said and spitting it back out (like dustinbrowder) doesn't make you qualified to give advice. Get some good experience under your belt and let me know how you do.

The reason the Zerg didn't have this problem in SC1 is because...

This is Starcraft 2. The sooner you start treating them as different games the better off you'll be.

[Nicol Bolas]

Side note... Technically the Queen is GTA and tier 1. Building 2+ will hold off against early air forces until you have mutas or hydras.

While technically true, due to Queens being basically creep-locked they can't do anything about the air units in the field. You know, the ones preventing you from moving onto the map, thus ceding map control. You're basically giving the enemy a free expansion.

And since everyone knows that Hydralisks are neigh useless against anything except air, everyone knows you'll take the Mutalisk route. Which means that they'll already be in the middle of bringing appropriate tech online to deal with them.

Sitting around all day and screaming imbalance hasn't (and won't) make me better at the game.

No, but sitting around playing the game won't make the imbalance go away either.

See, you're trying to get better at the game. A noble, if self-serving goal. I'm trying to make the game better. I know I won't be particularly better at the balanced version than the imbalanced version. That does not mean that I excuse Blizzard from not fixing the imbalance. Nor does it mean I ignore the imbalance that's obviously there.

And nor do I take the elitist path that says that imbalance only matters at the highest levels of play. Imbalance makes a game not-fun at whatever level it manifests itself in. Imbalance is not good for the game at any skill level.

I don't hear Toss whining about other Toss or Terran's ability to wall in.

Asked and answered. The Protoss don't need the intel early because their race isn't designed to be completely reactionary to their enemy. The Zerg are, and therefore they need that intel.

You spout a lot but I don't see anything that helps to backup your arguments.

Moreso than yours. All you do is talk about things that simply do not work, and you pretend that they do.

This is Starcraft 2. The sooner you start treating them as different games the better off you'll be.

And the sooner you start realizing that I was explaining what changed between the two games, how things worked in one game but fail to work in the other, the better off you'll be.

[GnaReffotsirk]

Indeed. I don't understand why some don't want to get the zerg reworked and rebalanced.

Everyone knows something is wrong with the Zerg, but some seem to neglect the fact that even in resourcing and graph of resource collection, terran and toss are better than zerg.

Just by that core flow of the game, Zerg can be called broken atm.

[Skyze]

theres not very much imbalance in the game, VERY little and definitely not enough that anyone here can feel it.. I dont see why people keep bringing it up..

You can easily win all your games as zerg if you play smart and micro well. It seems every zerg player keeps playing this defensive macro style of play, basically copying Idra.. thats NOT the way zerg is effective.. Learn to play aggressive and use zerg abilities to your advantage for once..

There is burrow (great with banelings), Overlord drops (again great with banelings, or roaches/hydras), Nydus worm makes quick work of most protosses and remains my biggest fear. Infestors, no one really uses at all these days.

If you want to talk about imbalance, lets talk about mutalisks vs protoss. rofl once you get over 15-20 mutas, theres almost nothing protoss can do short of twice the amount in stalkers.. Mutas do so much insane damage and now that there is no AOE attack like in BW (storm blows vs mutas, archons are a joke, phoenix doesnt splash) the mutas are just too much if used properly. Watch GSL, Check abuses mutas and spine crawlers so hard its retarded. So next time a zerg whines about imbalance, needs to watch that game.

their race isn't designed to be completely reactionary to their enemy.
- This quote is the biggest pile of bullshit ive heard all day.. zerg is not reactionary, PEOPLES PLAYSTYLE IS REACTIONARY!.. Look at MaDFRoG, say what you will about him if you are a BW elitist, but Madfrog does what he wants, when he wants it, and makes people struggle to survive. THAT is how you play zerg. Or look at Cool in todays GSL semi-finals, he stopped the horribly weak zealot pressure with just lings, then he was free to do whatever he wanted. He went banelings, and demolished the protoss. Did he have to wait to see what units the protoss was going? No, he went banelings, not even caring that the protoss had sentries. He just waited til the energy was gone and waited til the banelings were in good position to attack. I just dont understand how anyone things zerg is reactionary.. Maybe vs reapers, sure, but that was nerfed enough that speedlings should stop anything short of a 5rax reaper and if that is the case, you should go roach, thats just common sense (and guess what, Protoss NEEDS to go stalkers to counter reapers also! Should protoss bitch about being "reactionary??")

I'll say it again, stop whining and learn how to play smarter. the best zergs in the world arent bitching, only the idiots like Idra and Dimaga who cry about everything anyways. Check and Cool and the other 7 zergs who are top 20 in Korea didnt switch to terran, they are just learning how to try new things to win, what they should do.

And for all you people who keep talking about "blah the stats show zerg is the least played wahhh wahhh".. look at these stats..

Korean server Top 20 stats

Terran - 9
Protoss - 4
Zerg - 7

... So there you have it. theres more ZERG in the top 20 than Protoss by double, not to mention the #1 player on the korean server is ZERG. Actually TWO of the top 3 are zerg. What does this mean?

[dejai]

LEARN THE MAGIC BOX TRICK

You are wrong, here is why:
1. "Zerglings can be very effective, but those 100 zerglings need big spaces in order to surround the opposing armies."

This is a ludicrous situation you are using zerglings incorrectly.You don't just have a zergling army ever. No one does that. Not even in ZvZ. Zerglings give you early game map control and are one of the most threatening units in the match up due to (a) their ability to be quickly mass produced (b) their insane speed at counter attacking for exceptionally low cost. They are not your entire army! You have banelings, roaches, hydralisks, infestors, mutas and later on brood lords and ultras. You are playing the game wrong with 100 zergling compositions and attacking in small spaces.

2. You are using mutas wrong. Mutas are not your major fighters. They are designed to harass (except in extreme numbers). That is their goal when they come off 2 hatches. With the magic box trick i have no idea what you mean. Thors get owned by mutas.... The entire point you make is just invalid you need some skill to play 1A doesn't work...

[dustinbrowder]

@SKYZE:
I'll say it again, stop whining and learn how to play smarter. the best zergs in the world arent bitching, only the idiots like Idra and Dimaga who cry about everything anyways. Check and Cool and the other 7 zergs who are top 20 in Korea didnt switch to terran, they are just learning how to try new things to win, what they should do.

Oh really? And I suppose you didn't read the TL thread where all top korean Zerg players got eliminated for the GSL? You didn'r read about their furious reaction, using swears instead of normal words?

And I suppose NA, EU and SA Zerg players are worse than Korean Zerg's?
Haven't it occurred to you that Korean players may suck at Protoss and/or Terran?
Its one country on a new game VS the rest of the world, who do you think is more right?

SC2 did not even start selling in Korea like a week ago, it was still beta, so the 3 million players are mostly from NA and EU, do you think 3 million players are wrong over few hundred thousand?

LEARN THE MAGIC BOX TRICK

You are wrong, here is why:
1. "Zerglings can be very effective, but those 100 zerglings need big spaces in order to surround the opposing armies."

This is a ludicrous situation you are using zerglings incorrectly.You don't just have a zergling army ever. No one does that. Not even in ZvZ. Zerglings give you early game map control and are one of the most threatening units in the match up due to (a) their ability to be quickly mass produced (b) their insane speed at counter attacking for exceptionally low cost. They are not your entire army! You have banelings, roaches, hydralisks, infestors, mutas and later on brood lords and ultras. You are playing the game wrong with 100 zergling compositions and attacking in small spaces.

2. You are using mutas wrong. Mutas are not your major fighters. They are designed to harass (except in extreme numbers). That is their goal when they come off 2 hatches. With the magic box trick i have no idea what you mean. Thors get owned by mutas.... The entire point you make is just invalid you need some skill to play 1A doesn't work...

Please stop educating me on the game, if I wanted for an advice I'd ask for it and it has nothing to do with it, its obvious that Zerg are weaker than the other 2 races.

I stopped using banelings long time ago, when they got countered by any unit and for all the cost and time producing them, you would only get equal worth, if not worse.
Roaches against M&M? You try it and tell me if it works out for you, not to mention you are left with no AA what so ever and are forced to build more queens.

And until you get to ultralisks or broodlords the game usually ends, not to mention the SMALL MAPS, in which you can't go for a T3 build with only 2 expansions.