Armored attribute needs to be removed

[IchibanBaka]

Yeah, it's totally a crutch. Not being able to be Graviton Beamed, and being able to smash through Force Fields just by walking into them. Yeah, that just sucks

As for the idea itself, it makes no real sense. It seems to me that all of this "remove the Armored attribute" stuff comes directly from "I don't want it to die to Stimmed Marauders". Well, maybe that's the problem, and not the attribute itself.

XD massive attribute only useful against protoss

How bout squishing burrowed zerglings and making marines shit their pants XD JK

[Norfindel]

I'm starting to think Marauders are fine the way they are - no offense to the nay-sayers...

The reason is that Terran have no real answer to units like Ultras or mass roach, or even banelings without marauder DPS.

In TvP, they may be slightly OP, but Protoss lately have been able to adapt their unit compositions and builds to counter marauders pretty well. So much so that they aren't the real issue anymore; PvT is more about who has the better econ and macro while not dying or losing important tech or econ or production facilities to harass by Banshee or marauder/marine drops.

If Blizzard changes Marauders right now, they will break TvZ as all Terrans will die to any roach/baneling play (which is pretty damn effective right now), and in TvP, they will just get steam-rolled by mass stalkers from 4 gates.

Marauders absolutely destroy Roaches, and the Terrans have a fair share of stuff that can be used against Ultras, like Siege Tanks, Banshees, and Thors.

[protoswarrior]

Not at Tier 2.5/3; roaches with the regen upgrade and burrow are extremely resilient. Also, vs Ultras, it is always a combination of good positioning of tanks and support from marauders that enables them to kill 5/3 ultras. Straight up, Ultras chew siege-tanks alive... Again, same thing for Banshees and Thors: they're more support than core. You usually need a core of mobile Marauders to counter Ultras and roaches with tanks as support from long range whose splash doesn't insta-kill marauders, unlike marines.

[Norfindel]

That looks very strange, because the Ultralisk has a splash attack, and a bonus vs Armored. They should destroy a mob of Marauders, unless their damage output is causing the Ultralisks to be killed without much chance to retaliate.

If that's the case, it should be clear that there are problems. If your best chance is to mass a T1.5 unit in T3, something is not quite right. I mean, why not just get M&M&M, if they're the answer to Banelings, Roaches, and Ultras?

[minerals]

You are forgetting that stimmed marauders with good micro and kiting will kill ultras very fast if they have room to maneuver.

[Nicol Bolas]

If your best chance is to mass a T1.5 unit in T3, something is not quite right.

Actually, that's pretty normal. Mass of a Lower-Tier unit is usually the answer to Tier 3. Particularly fat units like Ultralisks or BattleCrusiers.

[Ghost_828]

Also keep in mind that Siege Tanks are getting nerfed, which does hamper a Terran player's overall options.

[Norfindel]

Actually, that's pretty normal. Mass of a Lower-Tier unit is usually the answer to Tier 3. Particularly fat units like Ultralisks or BattleCrusiers.

In fact, that was true for the Dragoon, but it wasn't your only hope. Anyways, note that the Dragoon doesn't exists anymore.

What Protosswarrior says, is that Terran is lost without the DPS of the Marauder mid/late game, but at the cost of this unit, the damage output is too high. Anyways, if the Zerg player went all the way to T3, i think it's reasonable to have some Thors to soak damage, and cause it.

IMO, Slow is too good for having it continously and automatically casted around the area that every one of the Marauders are shooting. I would make it a challenge, instead of a free launch, and move it to the Ghost, with a much bigger AoE, and affecting all kind of units.

[protoswarrior]

Actually, that's pretty normal. Mass of a Lower-Tier unit is usually the answer to Tier 3. Particularly fat units like Ultralisks or BattleCrusiers.

This is a good analogy with how goliaths are used lategame PvT when carriers were more popular. When you already have the infrastructure to build a bunch of lower tier units, why bother building a bunch of starports to get wraiths?

Mass Goliaths with range were the answer to carriers in BW. Similarly, mass rines/a few Thors are the answer to a BC tech transition, or mass marauders with slow/stim are the answer to Ultralisks in lategame TvZ. That's because you already have a huge number of barracks with tech addons. The infrastructure is in place, hence the counter.

Also, marauders have become a more core part of the Terran army in all matchups that if you remove marauders, Terran will be waaay too weak to deal with units like Stalkers and roaches.

Also keep in mind that Siege Tanks are getting nerfed, which does hamper a Terran player's overall options.

Another good point.

Tanks even now, are very powerful at keeping ground attacks at bay, but Blizzard deemed them TOO powerful, hence the nerf. The attack is changing to something like 35+15 or 15+35 vs armored. That enables units like chargelots and hydras to come within range without dying, but taking a lot of damage. Marauders (if the change is to give more armored damage to tanks) will basically replace the DPS against lower tier units like Zealots.

Marauders in early game are crucial to a Terran as they allow the Terran to move out earlier and gives them an option besides mech, and thus another metagame dynamic which differs from BW.

Mech in BW was more about turtling and positioning, and this is still true in SC2. However, Terran can now be aggressive with Bio, made robust by marauders to attack earlier and open up options for Terran.

In fact, that was true for the Dragoon, but it wasn't your only hope. Anyways, note that the Dragoon doesn't exists anymore.

The same applies to marauders too. They're not "the only hope", but they are also a core unit just like the Dragoon was in BW.

Imagine removing the Dragoon from BW... You would have a crippled Protoss army that HAS to turtle and would be too weak in early and mid-game until Anti-Air and other ranged unit options became available.

Same thing applies to Marauders in a sense: remove the Marauder and the other 2 races can dance over Terrans' heads with their superior ranged units with high DPS. Stalkers can be massed more easily with zealot support than marines alone can be. And, removing Marauders makes early-midgame PvT into the same old gameplay style as BW or weaker for Terran.

What Protosswarrior says, is that Terran is lost without the DPS of the Marauder mid/late game, but at the cost of this unit, the damage output is too high. Anyways, if the Zerg player went all the way to T3, i think it's reasonable to have some Thors to soak damage, and cause it.

Thors are horrible at soaking Ultralisk damage... Also, there won't just be Ultras, but cracklings as well, and they can instantly surround Thors what with its EXTREME sluggishness. Marauders have the right unit size and armor to deal with Ultras and cracklings as damage soakers while the semi-decent armor of Thors can take any ranged attacks or any "spare" ultras attacking them.

Also, the DPS of Marauders enables Terran to remain aggressive throughout the game. Zerg would be too powerful without marauders to slow them down, and marauder drops are what make them golden in lategame TvZ. Zerg have Overlords and Nydus.

This game alone just proves how powerful nydus worms are:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnpXpRrmIY0

Imagine not having Marauders in THAT world...
Insta-win for Zerg.

IMO, Slow is too good for having it continously and automatically casted around the area that every one of the Marauders are shooting. I would make it a challenge, instead of a free launch, and move it to the Ghost, with a much bigger AoE, and affecting all kind of units.

You really don't want that spell with the ghost... EMP is already very powerful as it is for an AoE spell, and it is essential in TvP and TvZ (against infestors).

Also, slow not being AoE actually helps the opponent as it is only straggling or slower units that get sniped. Faster units can actually run away BECAUSE Concussive Shells are not AoE. I think YOU would hate slow even more if that spell could slow down a whole army.

Also, the slow upgrade has more uses than just early-game aggression. You NEED slow when facing a T3 zerg army. Without slow, zerg would just be too powerful (again). Cracklings would just overrun everything with Ultras and roaches in tow dealing massive amounts of damage with no counter-momentum to the zerg's flow of units, from Terran.

Marauders and Concussive Shells are actually where they should be at this moment in time. I don't think they're too strong, as after beta, players have learnt to deal with Marauders, and the HP of marauders create an interesting challenge for newer players while they create opportunities for Terrans, and even Protoss to circumvent them totally or to use their relative lack of mobility against them. Same for Zerg.





EDIT:

BTW, how do I embed a youtube video into my post? I tried copy pasting this:


<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/MnpXpRrmIY0?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/MnpXpRrmIY0?fs=1&amp;hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>

and using the [HTML] [slash HTML] tags and even without them, but it doesn't seem to work...

[Norfindel]

The same applies to marauders too. They're not "the only hope", but they are also a core unit just like the Dragoon was in BW.

But the same doesn't apply. The Dragoon is more expensive, takes longer to build, and the attack is not directly comparable for the reasons i listed before, and had no stimpacks and no slow.

Imagine removing the Dragoon from BW... You would have a crippled Protoss army that HAS to turtle and would be too weak in early and mid-game until Anti-Air and other ranged unit options became available.

Same thing applies to Marauders in a sense: remove the Marauder and the other 2 races can dance over Terrans' heads with their superior ranged units with high DPS. Stalkers can be massed more easily with zealot support than marines alone can be. And, removing Marauders makes early-midgame PvT into the same old gameplay style as BW or weaker for Terran.

That's why i never talked about removing the Marauder, but nerfing it. If it's support, it's support, it doesn't needs to demolish everything in it's path, or there are some serious issues with the design of the game.
Also, the Dragoon got removed because it was too versatile, but they gave the same attack to the Marauder (probably better), and even gave it Slow and Stimpacks, only limiting the unit to attack ground targets. Guess what? There are no air units in that tier. Of course, that means that you cannot go crazy and build only Marauders, unless you plan to finish the game before the enemy gets air, but with that price, powerful attack, and Slow. It's just too too affordable and too good, and can be built in large numbers easily early game, causing trouble.

If there are problems in T3, it would be much more reasonable to solve them with the Tank, instead of nerfing the Tank, and leaving the Marauder as it is.

You really don't want that spell with the ghost... EMP is already very powerful as it is for an AoE spell, and it is essential in TvP and TvZ (against infestors).

Why? Cannot the Terrans afford to actually fight against the enemy spellcasters?

Also, slow not being AoE actually helps the opponent as it is only straggling or slower units that get sniped. Faster units can actually run away BECAUSE Concussive Shells are not AoE. I think YOU would hate slow even more if that spell could slow down a whole army.

At least will require skill to be used, instead of been a free launch and get autocasted over whatever the Marauders are shooting at. They completely disable Zealots early game. Also, it has a small AoE, otherwise would be quite useless against Zerglings, because of their numbers.

Also, the slow upgrade has more uses than just early-game aggression. You NEED slow when facing a T3 zerg army. Without slow, zerg would just be too powerful (again). Cracklings would just overrun everything with Ultras and roaches in tow dealing massive amounts of damage with no counter-momentum to the zerg's flow of units, from Terran.

What's the problem? Just move the spell to the Ghost, and let the Terran cast it over the Zerg army.

Marauders and Concussive Shells are actually where they should be at this moment in time. I don't think they're too strong, as after beta, players have learnt to deal with Marauders, and the HP of marauders create an interesting challenge for newer players while they create opportunities for Terrans, and even Protoss to circumvent them totally or to use their relative lack of mobility against them. Same for Zerg.

I disagree. The unit is clearly too powerful for cost. There's even a Day9 video were he shows how to stop Terran infantry by constantly casting FF on the ramp. Nobody would do that there wasn't a problem, because a small mistake means that they get vision up the ramp, or even get all the units up there, and then your units are screwed.
If a Terran goes 3 Barracks, gets one Reactor and 2 Labs, they can pump a lot of units very fast, and comfortably, while a Protoss player must struggle to Warp-in units while keeping a perfectly balanced Zealot and Stalker force, and keeping the Stalkers close, but not in front of the Zealots, and with a smaller army, as they cost more.