SCLegacy SC2Ranks Division Discussion

[SuperKiller]

I dont think it would be fair if my victory over 1300 point players rewards same as a 800 point player would.

don't be too surprised when you see it happen, but I think i've generally witnessed ~300 point difference or so has been the range of weirdness. my recent ladder occurrence from what I can remember ran something like this. 1100 even, i win, next game 850 opp favored, i barely lose, then some 800-1050 even games, player who was like 20 pts less than me i was slightly favored...(this was 700-800 climb i think).....

later on i play some games losing a few in a row at first, but come back to even with bonus putting me up a lil to like 850, I run into friend who was 950 pt and he was considered favored me being 830 or so and i win giving me 15 points, gives me even match after that and i win, then gives me 1350 terran player who's slightly favored and i lose that one

It just seems so random, doesn't tell much of a story. Some players are bad and advance easy it appears. i've run into some really awful players that were up pretty well.

weekend will be good. my pvz might be better than my zvp too, but i'm on like a 15 pvz game limit so far. I was already beating zergs who were better than my zerg at the time with it so yeah. then i played some pvt and basically all that crossed my mind was, this is what p is complaining about? then i played pvp like 5 times in a row then wanted to switch back to zerg immediately.

my beta protoss run was like lose 1 placement match to cannon rush that was stalemate but i wasn't gonna play some stupid waiting game. I get put into gold and go like 24-6 or something losing 1 pvz to ling runby that i didn't pay attention to, 1 pvz that got to late game where i learned just how bad ultras ripped apart stalkers, lost like 1 pvt then the others pvp. after that it goes down, phase 2 starts, i hit a wall with zerg get pissed off then go something horrible like 30-26, got mad i switch to toss again, go 8-1 right after that.

I'm hijacking this thread with rants!

and nothing can really explain the korean player difference that i posted before.

The point system and bonus pool is pretty silly. I would much rather I just saw their hidden matchmaking value (or at least had some way to see it) so that I better know where I stand.

Yes, the hidden rating seems to be much more accurate once the mass "opponent is favored" portion is over.

[Todie]

life is cathing up with me this fall. i cant paly enough. bu once i can play for all my saved up bonus, i should be able to keep up with the top3 at least.

[Skyze]

It all depends on who you have to play Superkiller, the only reason i got more points and less games than you, with about same win rate, is that i played higher ranked and pointed players that rewarded me more in points per win.

I dont think it would be fair if my victory over 1300 point players rewards same as a 800 point player would.

My PvZ is very solid, if you want to pratice with me i have 4 EU quest passes we can use, im free the entire weekend.

nope, the reason you have more points than us and less games, is the platinum bug. I made another thread about it. I was close to 1000 in platinum, with a rec of like 40-15.. and it wouldnt push me to diamond. I had to PURPOSELY lose 3 games in a row, then it finally pushed me up to diamond, and my 1000 pts (used all my bonus points) turned into 400 diamond. So I was stuck at 400 diamond, NO bonus points AND already hit my "hidden level" so I now win only 10 pts a game.

Im assuming you got into diamond fairly quickly, within your first 25 games.. So all your left over bonus points (probably at least 400-500) were available to you in Diamond, along with having all your wins count for 20+ points, and your losses count for less than 10 points lost.. This makes climbing diamond really fast, if you are lucky enough to get in that situation. If you are stuck with the plat bug like me, every loss I got since 400 diamond has basically tooken away a win (+12 for a win vs -10 for a loss basically)

I been playing almost all 1000+ diamond players, even since I was in platinum i was doing 800+ diamond players. So I really doubt its anything to do with who you play. Its how the system screws you over, or doesnt screw you over. Thats the only indicating factor in how fast you can climb.

Example of this, the player CauthonLuck, he was 55-5 the first 2 weeks of the beta.. stuck in platinum at 55-5?? He was 1150 platinum. He did the "trick", lost 3 games in a row.. and his 1150 Platinum turned into 600 diamond. So he would be roughly 55-8 and only 600 diamond pts, no bonus pool. Do you think thats fair, when you are 44-26 and 900 pts diamond? Im sure he played much stronger players too, because even with 55-5 in platinum, he was on blizzard's Top 200 list for US server, so he was matching vs top players, just wasnt being let out of diamond for some reason.

[Alterran]

nope, the reason you have more points than us and less games, is the platinum bug. I made another thread about it. I was close to 1000 in platinum, with a rec of like 40-15.. and it wouldnt push me to diamond. I had to PURPOSELY lose 3 games in a row, then it finally pushed me up to diamond, and my 1000 pts (used all my bonus points) turned into 400 diamond. So I was stuck at 400 diamond, NO bonus points AND already hit my "hidden level" so I now win only 10 pts a game.

Im assuming you got into diamond fairly quickly, within your first 25 games.. So all your left over bonus points (probably at least 400-500) were available to you in Diamond, along with having all your wins count for 20+ points, and your losses count for less than 10 points lost.. This makes climbing diamond really fast, if you are lucky enough to get in that situation. If you are stuck with the plat bug like me, every loss I got since 400 diamond has basically tooken away a win (+12 for a win vs -10 for a loss basically)

I been playing almost all 1000+ diamond players, even since I was in platinum i was doing 800+ diamond players. So I really doubt its anything to do with who you play. Its how the system screws you over, or doesnt screw you over. Thats the only indicating factor in how fast you can climb.

Example of this, the player CauthonLuck, he was 55-5 the first 2 weeks of the beta.. stuck in platinum at 55-5?? He was 1150 platinum. He did the "trick", lost 3 games in a row.. and his 1150 Platinum turned into 600 diamond. So he would be roughly 55-8 and only 600 diamond pts, no bonus pool. Do you think thats fair, when you are 44-26 and 900 pts diamond? Im sure he played much stronger players too, because even with 55-5 in platinum, he was on blizzard's Top 200 list for US server, so he was matching vs top players, just wasnt being let out of diamond for some reason.

I got promoted to diamond with 26-11, with 200 bonus points left. I had 900 points in platinum i think.

You are totaly right, the only reason im getting same points like you so quickly is cuz im lucky. Or that you had a bug.

You are obv the same skill lvl as cathonluck and there is no way i deserve to be rated higher than you.

I mean, we obv played the same players to get to were we are in the ladder, there is just no way in hell i played better players than you did. Cuz you are cathonluck.

And obv the korean player was stuck in platinum for 500 games or so, its got NOTHING to do with the fact he played against worse players than the rank 1 korean.

[Skyze]

I got promoted to diamond with 26-11, with 200 bonus points left. I had 900 points in platinum i think.

You are totaly right, the only reason im getting same points like you so quickly is cuz im lucky. Or that you had a bug.

You are obv the same skill lvl as cathonluck and there is no way i deserve to be rated higher than you.

I mean, we obv played the same players to get to were we are in the ladder, there is just no way in hell i played better players than you did. Cuz you are cathonluck.

And obv the korean player was stuck in platinum for 500 games or so, its got NOTHING to do with the fact he played against worse players than the rank 1 korean.

Im not saying you are worse or anything; im just saying that PROVES HOW you got to 900 points with half the games I played. You obviously are not losing everygame so you deserve to be at 900 points, but your statement to SuperKiller saying "I got here faster than you because I beat better players" is completely bullshit. You just wern't affected by the bug, and therefor you were able to get there faster. In the case of Superkiller, I have no idea if he was stuck in platinum like I was, but I posted many posts following my progress from it, and people like Hammy can attest for me that I was, indeed, stuck in Platinum with a record that rivaled the top diamond players at the time, so there was definitely an issue.

I am not Cauthonluck, I have no relation to CauthonLuck within the past 5 years (havent even talked to him since like 2004?) I was just stating the obvious, He is the most famous case of the "Platinum Bug", a person with an insane win ratio who was unfairly stuck in Platinum, and got his points fucked over by the system. Im not saying he is better than HuK or any other top diamond player who is not having issues, Im just saying he got FUCKED OVER by Blizzard's crappy system. Make sense??

It all depends on who you have to play Superkiller, the only reason i got more points and less games than you, with about same win rate, is that i played higher ranked and pointed players that rewarded me more in points per win.

I dont think it would be fair if my victory over 1300 point players rewards same as a 800 point player would.

My whole point in my post is to refute your insanely ignorant and outrageous claim to SuperKiller that you beat better players and that is why you got more points with less games. Who knows, it may be true in the case of SK, (highly highly unlikely) But I can guarantee you I played the same amount of rating players than you did, if not higher for at least 70+ games (As shown by the fact I have had my "hidden rating" determined before I even got into Diamond, wayyy before, and you are still not even close, as is proof when you look at your match listing. You are getting 40+ points a game still for each win, which is 20 pts before bonus points... Know how much points I get a win?? 12 if they are favored, 10 if its even. Know how much I lose a game? 10. That means everytime I lose a game, it essentially erases a win from my record. You, need to lose 3-4 games to erase one win right now, because you got lucky with the system. Im not saying you dont deserve to be at 900 diamond, but clearly there is a mistake in the system, as our win ratios are almost the exact same at 62% so it is not a fact of me losing more games early in my climbing than you.

[Alterran]

Im not saying you are worse or anything; im just saying that PROVES HOW you got to 900 points with half the games I played. You obviously are not losing everygame so you deserve to be at 900 points, but your statement to SuperKiller saying "I got here faster than you because I beat better players" is completely bullshit. You just wern't affected by the bug, and therefor you were able to get there faster. In the case of Superkiller, I have no idea if he was stuck in platinum like I was, but I posted many posts following my progress from it, and people like Hammy can attest for me that I was, indeed, stuck in Platinum with a record that rivaled the top diamond players at the time, so there was definitely an issue.

I am not Cauthonluck, I have no relation to CauthonLuck within the past 5 years (havent even talked to him since like 2004?) I was just stating the obvious, He is the most famous case of the "Platinum Bug", a person with an insane win ratio who was unfairly stuck in Platinum, and got his points fucked over by the system. Im not saying he is better than HuK or any other top diamond player who is not having issues, Im just saying he got FUCKED OVER by Blizzard's crappy system. Make sense??



My whole point in my post is to refute your insanely ignorant and outrageous claim to SuperKiller that you beat better players and that is why you got more points with less games. Who knows, it may be true in the case of SK, (highly highly unlikely) But I can guarantee you I played the same amount of rating players than you did, if not higher for at least 70+ games (As shown by the fact I have had my "hidden rating" determined before I even got into Diamond, wayyy before, and you are still not even close, as is proof when you look at your match listing. You are getting 40+ points a game still for each win, which is 20 pts before bonus points... Know how much points I get a win?? 12 if I am lucky. Know how much I lose a game? 10. That means everytime I lose a game, it essentially erases a win from my record. You, need to lose 3-4 games to erase one win right now, because you got lucky with the system. Im not saying you dont deserve to be at 900 diamond, but clearly there is a mistake in the system, as our win ratios are almost the exact same at 62% so it is not a fact of me losing more games early in my climbing than you.

Oh my god, you are just not getting what im saying. Its not about the skills, its about the POINTS.

I think i played ladder games first 1 week ago, obv i played against better rated players than you, cut the crap.
Unless you started playing 1 week ago too, players have HIGHER RATING at the moment than they did at the start of the retail.

You clearly dont understand anything about what im saying, do you?
Let me explain this in a simple way.

Day 1, everyone make their new accs, everyone is 0 point.
Someone super skilled plays 100 games the first day of the game, he will not be able to play against 1200 rated diamonds, cuz there are none.
So, his matches will never award him 40 points, cuz he is super favoured if he won a lot of games and is currently among the best ranked in points.

2 week later, someone the same skill lvl starts out playing, he crushes the games and get placed against 500 higher rated diamond players. He will get his points faster than the previous player, since he started later and the ranking point pool is higher.

Simply put, points are worth less each day we play, cuz the players in the top ranks are getting more and more.
800 points 3 weeks ago was the shit, now its not.

And ur platinum bug stuff doesnt even matter after 50 more games, you get awarded diffrent points based on your opponents rating, i dont belive you for a sec that you played against top rated players and only got 12 points for winning against a 400 higher rated pro player.
When you started out in diamond as a 400 rated player, did you really get paired with 1000 rated players and get only 12 points for winning? cuz thats what i got paired with, and i got 20 points.

Most extreme example of what im saying you can clearly see on those two korean players, obv the rank 29 player put in a lot of gaming time(500 more games diffrence) before the rank 1 did, possibly the first week of the game, the rank 1 player just played a lot more recently and got a higher point amount cuz there are more points to win. Unless he played 500 games in platinum bug?

Now read what i said again... "It all depends on who you have to play Superkiller, the only reason i got more points and less games than you, with about same win rate, is that i played higher ranked and pointed players that rewarded me more in points per win."

What fking part of that is a "insanely ignorant and outrageous claim" ?

Ur the one talking bullshit.
Proof of this.
Yesterday records for my play, ok, so i notice i lost -1 rating one game. 1 rating? woot?
Against who? Kiwikaki. A 1400 point player.
Then i look at when i losed most points yesterday:
17 points lost, to a 759 point random player.

Obv the system works fine, you losing / winning more based on how much points a player have. Unless you are gonna bullshit that you would have lost 10 points to a 500 more rated player.

[minerals]

Oh my god, you are just not getting what im saying. Its not about the skills, its about the POINTS.

I think i played ladder games first 1 week ago, obv i played against better rated players than you, cut the crap.
Unless you started playing 1 week ago too, players have HIGHER RATING at the moment than they did at the start of the retail.

You clearly dont understand anything about what im saying, do you?
Let me explain this in a simple way.

Day 1, everyone make their new accs, everyone is 0 point.
Someone super skilled plays 100 games the first day of the game, he will not be able to play against 1200 rated diamonds, cuz there are none.
So, his matches will never award him 40 points, cuz he is super favoured if he won a lot of games and is currently among the best ranked in points.

2 week later, someone the same skill lvl starts out playing, he crushes the games and get placed against 500 higher rated diamond players. He will get his points faster than the previous player, since he started later and the ranking point pool is higher.

Simply put, points are worth less each day we play, cuz the players in the top ranks are getting more and more.
800 points 3 weeks ago was the shit, now its not.

And ur platinum bug stuff doesnt even matter after 50 more games, you get awarded diffrent points based on your opponents rating, i dont belive you for a sec that you played against top rated players and only got 12 points for winning against a 400 higher rated pro player.
When you started out in diamond as a 400 rated player, did you really get paired with 1000 rated players and get only 12 points for winning? cuz thats what i got paired with, and i got 20 points.

Most extreme example of what im saying you can clearly see on those two korean players, obv the rank 29 player put in a lot of gaming time(500 more games diffrence) before the rank 1 did, possibly the first week of the game, the rank 1 player just played a lot more recently and got a higher point amount cuz there are more points to win. Unless he played 500 games in platinum bug?

Now read what i said again... "It all depends on who you have to play Superkiller, the only reason i got more points and less games than you, with about same win rate, is that i played higher ranked and pointed players that rewarded me more in points per win."

What fking part of that is a "insanely ignorant and outrageous claim" ?

Ur the one talking bullshit.
Proof of this.
Yesterday records for my play, ok, so i notice i lost -1 rating one game. 1 rating? woot?
Against who? Kiwikaki. A 1400 point player.
Then i look at when i losed most points yesterday:
17 points lost, to a 759 point random player.

Obv the system works fine, you losing / winning more based on how much points a player have. Unless you are gonna bullshit that you would have lost 10 points to a 500 more rated player.

I disagree with what your saying and completely agree with Demosquid. While what your saying is true your missing demo's point If I win 500 games in platinum league in a row I WILL STILL BE IN PLATINUM with maybe 10000 points due to the fact i am getting xtra points from my bonus pool. Now I lose 3 games and win 1 game and i get promoted. I now have maybe 1000 points out of the original 10000 and I have wasted my bonus pool so it has now become much harder for me to stockpile points up.

Edit: Read thru your post again. The 3 lose 1 win platinum bug still works today.

[TheRabidDeer]

Point system makes no sense at all D:

I have been playing against 800+ point diamond people and I am down at 450ish and only get 20 points for winning with bonus pool =[

[Skyze]

lol. Kid doesnt get it. Let me lay it out for you.

EVERY SINGLE PLAYER, SINCE DAY 1 OF SC2 RETAIL, GETS 20 PTS FOR A WIN VS AN EVEN OPPONENT. (after placement matches are played) FOR THE FIRST ~60 to 100 GAMES.

You Slightly favored = you win 18 pts
EVEN = you win 20 pts
Them slightly favored = you win 22 pts
Them favored = you win 24 pts.

Coincidentally, EVERY LOSS is under 8 points, Even if you are 1500 Diamond losing to a 100 Silver player, you will NEVER lose more than 8 points if you are under the first threshold.

this happens for EVERYONE at the start, in EVERY LEAGUE, AS SOON as you are out of placements.

Bonus points add double that, so you get 40 PTS a win.

Now, after you are determined to get your "hidden rating" finalized, which is usually in the ~60-100 game mark.. This CHANGES SIGNIFICANTLY.. You now only get 10 pts a win vs Even, and you also lose 8 pts vs Even. This is so that people like White-Ra, HuK, etc can't just keep bashing newbs and getting 10000 pts in one week. EVERY LOSS THEY GET, ESSENTIALLY ERASES A WIN.. SO if they go 4-4 in a day, they may of gained +4 points TOTAL for that day, UNDERSTAND?? The higher you get up on the ladder, the less points you win, NOT THE OPPOSITE WAY AROUND like you think! You DO NOT gain more points if you beat someone whos 1500 instead of beating someone whos 200, you will get the SAME points, plus or minus 6 points... The only thing that will change, is who is FAVORED, which is determined by the HIDDEN RATING.. which we cant see. Therefor, Since you got lucky and lost enough games early on and got promoted to diamond faster, you are not at your first threshold yet, and you still get PTS as if you were beating 100 point players. This will change within your next 20 games most likely, then you will be climbing significantly slower.

The thing that you need to understand.. Beating someone who is 1500 Diamond and beating someone who is 200 Diamond.. will give you THE SAME AMOUT OF POINTS.. (give or take FOUR points total.. so you can either have +16(favored), +18(semifavor), +20(even), +22(them semifav) or +24(them favored). NOTHING MORE. It all depends on the HIDDEN RATING to determine who is favored, which has nothing to do with points. You may have more points than me, but I have a higher hidden rating than you, and will continue to have a higher hidden rating than you until you play more games. This is why when you win games, you win 20+ points, and when I win games vs the same or higher rating players, I only gain 10. Go check the match listings.

WHEN YOUR HIDDEN RATING IS DETERMINED (After 60 to 100 games played, no one knows the actually threshold), YOUR POINT WIN TOTALS DECREASE BY HALF! SO instead of getting 20 PTS a win vs an even opponent, you will now get 10 PTS a win vs an even opponent. And your losses will go from losing 3 or 4 PTS a game like it is now, to 10 PTS a game. THIS IS WHERE THE BNET PROMOTION BUGS RUIN THE SYSTEM.. Because despite some people having a VERY high win percentage, it would not promote them because they never lose, and it couldnt tell where their floor was, where as people like you who Lose OFTEN early on, are promoted to diamond faster, and still have your basic placement Point system in place, therefor able to use your bonus points to climb faster than players with higher win ratios like myself.

So yes, what I do now in my 2v2 teams, I purposely lose 3 games after about 15 wins, and it places me directly into Diamond, and then I can use my bonus points + the 20+ pt wins to climb faster, instead of going 30-1 and being stuck in Platinum, only to have all my points defunkt if I ever do manage to lose afew to get into Diamond.. I was 50-12 in 4v4 RT with a Platinum rating of 1180, #1 in the world for Platinum... It was because my losses were so far between, I couldnt settle in to diamond yet, until I HAD to lose 3 in a row. Which I purposely did, and BAM, Diamond, and my 1200 pts turned into 600 pts, with no bonus pool left.

The HIDDEN RATING is the key to the point system, and is how CauthonLuck, who was in PLATINUM was ranked in the top 100 of the BNet 200 Top players, above 100 other Diamond players with 1000+ points.. How could a PLATINUM player be above Diamond players in Blizzard's top 200? Because points mean SHIT, its all about the HIDDEN RATING..

Did you also notice for the first few BNet Top 200 ladder rankings, They were SIGNIFICANTLY different than the SC2ranks.com ladder chart??? This is because the HIDDEN RATING is what signifies who is FAVORED or not in SC2, not points.. THEREFOR, in theory, Beating someone who is 1000 Diamond could give you LESS points than beating someone who is 1000 Platinum, assuming his HIDDEN RATING is higher, like CauthonLuck's was.

HERE IS A COMPLEX BREAKDOWN OF HOW LADDER WORKS, FROM TEAM LIQUID.. READ IT AND FINALLY UNDERSTAND HOW LADDER WORKS ~
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=142211

[TheRabidDeer]

Skyze, you are getting a bit emotional over this and I can testify beyond a shadow of a doubt that the initial 100 game system you propose is wrong (unless it is a combined total between 2's 3's and 4's as well, in which case I shot myself in the foot and that is another problem in the system).

I am sitting at 46 games played for 1v1 and I dont get more than 24-26 points for a win with the bonus pool. Yes, I have gotten a 26 point win though most of them are between 18 and 24.

EDIT: Regardless, yes I have said before in this thread I think that the hidden rating is what counts.