Fantastic Critique on Starcraft 2 forums

[broodmywarcraft]

anyway gt.com choosed me2 as the best rpg game of the year

hell yes

yeeeeeessss!!!!

[RussianSpy27]

Hi, Andrew of the OP here. A few things right off the bat: I'm flattered and pleased that my post has garnered debate in more than the original context. Thanks all. I work hard to maintain the OP, and don't want to get sucked into obsessively responding on two fronts. I may not respond often on this front, so if you actually want to maintain a debate with me, I'd suggest you move to my OP as it is my preferred location.

To address some general themes:

1) You treat other's opinions poorly
I try not to. Is that to say I've never lost my cool, typed something I regret, been overly dismissive? Of course not, but I always always try to be respectful of others even those that have not shown me the same respect. My OP is, admittedly, a bit of a firebrand. I regret the tone of certain sections, but, due to editing/word limits/real life I do not have the time to systematically edit the post. Yet, I have also added language that is considerably more consolatory than the first draft or two I had up to address that very issue. That said, I do feel that I have been very respectful to fellow forum-goers, and believe the 90+ pages bares that out to those who care to look.

2) It's just an opinion
Simply saying someone's argument is "just an opinion" does not disarms the situation. Allow me to demonstrate: It is just the opinion of people who say my argument is just opinion--satisfied with that counter-argument, of course not. Just saying something is an opinion does not defeat the argument surrounding that opinion. Let's take another obvious example. Mr. B kills another person. Mr. B is taken into custody and the following argument is made:

Some acts deserver to be punished.
Murder is an act that deserves to be punished.
Mr. B has committed murder.
Therefore, Mr. B deserves to be punished.

It is in no way satisfactory for Mr. B to produce the counter-argument:
Well, I should not be punished because murder being an act that should be punished is just your opinion.

Mr. B has missed the point. Just as critics are being disingenuous and missing the point when they proclaim everything I write was an opinion. I base my argumentation on statements that are true or false. We must get passed the notion that somehow opinions are not arguments or valid. There are unfounded opinions (to be sure) and then there are opinions that are based on sound argumentation.

Like all art forms, there are certain interpretations that go into understanding the art itself. A component of that interpretation will be opinion, but, if the opinions are good ones then they are based on true or false statements. Thus, my opinion that Raynor radically changes his perspective on Kerrigan is based on facts: Raynor says he is going to kill Kerrigan in True Colors that is a fact. It is a true or false statement. When I write that Raynor begins SC2 pining over her picture that too is a true or false statement. It is not my opinion that Raynor changed his mind, it is a fact. That contributes to my overall interpretation of SC2, but my statements are based on truth or falsehood.

3) You got your facts wrong!
THAT'S JUST YOUR OPINION :P
Seriously, I have updated the OP several times now. People were correct in calling me out on my equivocation of the Dark Voice being a Xel'Naga (and other issues). If I'm wrong about the facts tell me, I'll look into it. It does no good to merely offhandedly remark, "His facts are wrong, but I don't have the time to say where..." If you raise an issue raise it, don't hint at it or claim you have a knockout argument but are choosing to keep it hidden. I'm happy to, and genuinely want to, engage in this debate. I welcome corrections, because I realize that my argument will either get better because it is tighter or fall apart and I'll take it down thus no longer saying something stupid in public. It's a win-win for me!

4) The argument is holistic
I see many of my points in line of poor writing rather than retcons. Due to forum naming limits, I could not call my post: "[Spoilers] Retcons and Poor Writing Greatly Weakens SC2 Story" So, since I think the Overmind retcon is the most egregious, it gets the headline. The other points are meant to be understood holistically, no one of them sinks SC2, but all summed together (or even with many thrown out) the weight sinks the ship. No one is the knockout--I never claim otherwise--once you take out the blunt force trauma that is the Overmind retcon, SC2 dies due to a thousand cuts.

5) You didn't read the books!
We must all rank sources of information, not just in games but in life: Do I trust Source A or B more? Is this information more reliable than that? I have been upfront about the fact that I place highest priority on SC/BW game and manual. This would not change if I had read the books, I would simply view the books through the lens of the games. A change is a change. Thus, if a change to the SC/BW continuity takes place in the DT series, I will place the highest priority on the SC/BW material, because SC/BW is my highest/most trusted source. It seems that many of my critics cherry pick information to suit their arguments at the time. There's nothing wrong with that, but methodologies should be transparent. I feel that mine has been.



Again, I'm not sure how often I will reply here, but I really encourage you to stop by my OP. The stoyline debate should be held in full view of Blizzard, because I honestly believe they want to improve their future products (or keep them the same if you happened to like it). I'm really honored that my post has spread a bit from its original context, but, it is in the original context that I plan to nurture and maintain it. So if you really want to have this debate, come on over Please stop by so we can hash it out, I'd enjoy going into more depth with the individuals here.

http://us.battle.net:80/sc2/en/forum/topic/374721415

Thanks for writing here Andrew! I believe Blizz came up with the Story forum thanks to your hard work at maintaining your thread. The forum hasn't proven to be useful yet, but they've paid some attention to your arguments, which is already more than most of us were able to achieve. Keep up the good work!

[Turalyon]

Again, I'm not sure how often I will reply here, but I really encourage you to stop by my OP. The stoyline debate should be held in full view of Blizzard, because I honestly believe they want to improve their future products (or keep them the same if you happened to like it). I'm really honored that my post has spread a bit from its original context, but, it is in the original context that I plan to nurture and maintain it. So if you really want to have this debate, come on over Please stop by so we can hash it out, I'd enjoy going into more depth with the individuals here.

Would if I could. Unfortunately, I got the EU version so I can't really respond on the US forums...

[mr. peasant]

Would if I could. Unfortunately, I got the EU version so I can't really respond on the US forums...

Same here. Why the HELL did Blizzard do that?!

[TheAndrew]

It's always been my opinion that Raynor would have saved Kerrigan regardless of Zeratul's prophecy. It's not so simple as saying that he loves her, Kerrigan has become an embodiment of Ranor's failures. ...

He needed to save Kerrigan because to save Kerrigan meant saving himself. It's only minimally about saving the woman he loves, mostly it's about proving that he can do something good, something that won't result in the death of the people around him, and that he can amend his past mistakes.

And that's why I find the ending so bittersweet. He thought he'd finally succeeded, but instead he brought his closest friend to his death. Again. I wish Raynor would have finally had the chance to have something good happen to him, but it seems he's destined to be the universe's punching bag. And with Kerrigan being the main character of Heart of the Swarm it feels like everything Ranor's done in this campaign is being taken away from him. Just like in Rebel Yell.

I like this interpretation, but am not sure that all of the facts support it. The supplemental material and interviews with writers is really revealing on this matter: Metzen's comment about Starcraft fundamentally being about a boy and a girl constantly haunts me. Also, I think it is clear from True Colors that Raynor thinks that Kerrigan is dead or has fully embraced being the QoB. She was metaphysically free in BW, and decides to take up the mantle of the Queen. Jim constantly calls her "Kerrigan" not the Queen of Blades in BW. That, to me, suggests that at least in Brood War he doesn't buy into the notion that Kerrigan and the Queen of Blades are different people. Jim never expresses any kind of a feeling that Kerrigan and the QoB's are different people in SC2 either, which is problematic to this interpretation, because it is not clear what redemption means if Kerrigan is the QoB. It is obvious what redemption means if she is not, but if Kerrigan willingly self-consciously decided to be the QoB (as BW implies and Jim never wonders about in SC2) then she is no more "savable" than Mengsk. Now, I realize, in the Queen of Blades book it is implied that she is trapped in her own mind (because that's the thing to be if you are a zerg apparently) but Jim never expresses that concern. Nor does anyone that Jim trusts express that concern in game (Valerian is ambiguous on the point, but Jim states outright that he doesn't trust him) So, unless Jim's read the book, I'm not sure there is anything but the sappy love story there. There is also how the story is shown. The big manly man with his big manly gun carrying the naked prone helpless woman into the light of day is cliched love story 101 rather than complicated sense of duty and redemption 101 Visually, the game borrows far more heavily from the visuals of love stories than it does themes of redemption.

I would very much prefer your interpretation because there is depth to it, but I don't think that Blizzard had it in mind.

[FanaticTemplar]

Also, I think it is clear from True Colors that Raynor thinks that Kerrigan is dead or has fully embraced being the QoB. She was metaphysically free in BW, and decides to take up the mantle of the Queen.

I can see how you could draw that conclusion, but I do not agree with it. Kerrigan's personality does not follow a coherent transition from Terran to Zerg, even accounting for her betrayal by Mengsk - and if Mengsk was the source of Kerrigan's new personality, then why would Kerrigan choose to spare him - twice? She becomes cruel without purpose, she's filled with rage and bloodlust, she demonstrates contempt for everyone else. These are traits that the Overmind would have wanted to develop in his agent. She also contradicts herself, in her first meeting with Raynor she says that she likes what she has become, but when speaking to Mengsk in True Colors she claims that she can't forgive him for "the hell [she's] been through", she clearly shows conflict between what she was and what she is.

The kind of complete and bizarre personality change that comes over Kerrigan does not jive with character development. It's more likely that like the rest of her body, her brain was mutated to better serve the Swarm. And you can only think as your brain allows you to. She was free to make her own choices, but her brain was no longer one to make the choices Kerrigan would have. She was not the same person anymore.

But as for Raynor it really doesn't matter. He's consistently demonstrated that he's willing to do stupid things if he thinks it can save Kerrigan. He went to Char despite both the Swarm and the Dominion being there just because he had 'dreams'. He sided with Kerrigan in Brood War even though it was obviously wrong. How could he not have jumped at an opportunity to save her in Wings of Liberty?

[Louis]

I'm been a bit of an armchair psychologist here, but I believe "how many must die in your mad quest for power before you realise what you've become" (paraphrased) would mean that Jim has not completely given up the cause for Kerrigan. If he thought it was a lost cause he'd probably not bother with the pleading or the reasoning or whatever you want to call it and simply spew the death threats and be done with it.

[TheAndrew]

[Raynor] went to Char despite both the Swarm and the Dominion being there just because he had 'dreams'. He sided with Kerrigan in Brood War even though it was obviously wrong. How could he not have jumped at an opportunity to save her in Wings of Liberty?

For those very reasons To paraphrase the sage poet wordsmith that was President Bush [/sarcasm]: Fool me once shame on me, fool me twice slaughter several billion people including best friends and you can't fool me again! I felt like Raynor's outburst at the end of True Colors was the pronouncement that he finally saw her as the QoB and was going to kill her, no more second/third/fortieth chances, no more pity.

I think your argument holds a lot of weight that Kerrigan has special emotions for Jim. He's certainly not just some enemy to her. I'm not sure that is the kind of deep love that Blizz has us believe (and Raynor seems to reciprocate), but he clearly means something to her. It is also hard to jive her being a slave to the Overmind and her choices to let Raynor go... several times, but that's outside of the current scope. Also, I'm not sure that Raynor heard her tell Mengsk that. All we know he has heard is her pronouncement of liking what she's become (SC1) and her actions throughout SC/BW.

As for the status of her brain, again, I'm not really comfortable speculating on how she works. We don't know, but what is more important is that Raynor doesn't know either. He never expresses the idea that somehow she was slave/sorta-free (a contradiction) in SC/BW and now he can actually free her in SC2. So we can play fill in the plot holes all day long, but I don't think we should have to on major issues like why the heck is Jim doing this, or is Kerrigan free, or does Jim think Kerrigan is free?

As I said in my OP, I felt that the Raynor the eternal dupe arc ended in BW with True Colors. So it was really frustrating to me that he was back to being this "I trust her implicitly and must save her!" guy in SC2. I felt like it was a step backwards in the arc rather an advancement--without telling us how he backtracked.

I'm been a bit of an armchair psychologist here, but I believe "how many must die in your mad quest for power before you realise what you've become" (paraphrased) would mean that Jim has not completely given up the cause for Kerrigan. If he thought it was a lost cause he'd probably not bother with the pleading or the reasoning or whatever you want to call it and simply spew the death threats and be done with it.

Listening to it again, I don't feel like it is reasoning with her. I felt they were rhetorical questions, or just shock that she really just put the knife in his back... AGAIN. I felt like it was more like him finally realizing that she wasn't going to stop... ever. To me, it sounds more like Jim finally realizing that his idea of her does not jive with the actual her. To me, his pleading is the desperate cries of betrayal rather than the rational appeal for her to come back. That said, even if he may not have completely given up on her, he still promises to kill her. She's killed over 8 billion people, it makes Jim, the moral compass of the series, a sociopath in his own right to forgive and love her despite her murders.

[spychi]

yeeeeeessss!!!!

best story of 2010 from GT.com

[Louis]

She's killed over 8 billion people, it makes Jim, the moral compass of the series, a sociopath in his own right to forgive and love her despite her murders.

For starters, Jim hasn't said anything about forgiving her just yet, and for now he's done no more than give Valarian the benefit of the doubt that he is right about the artifact. Whats it matter even assuming that the nature of their pre-infestation relationship has changed? You said it ourself that it was always a strong one, and there are such things as strong non-romantic relationships between men and women. Hell, I risked my life and damn near died for it just to save my pet dog from drowning, so I can sort of see where Jim is coming from. I don't know how it'd form so quicky with them, but then I've never had first hand experience with what it's like to have had a person reach out to me telepathically.