Fantastic Critique on Starcraft 2 forums

[RussianSpy27]

Hawki what's your battle.net ID? Why won't you reply on the thread itself?

The OP likes to respond frequently, he just makes it a point to stay focused on only that single thread, so I doubt he'll come to SC:L to debate.

I just feel like it would make sense and be interesting to hear what the author of the arguments has to say in response to your valid points, and he would probably provide more context, as the OP. than Turalyon, myself or another person here.

[FanaticTemplar]

It's always been my opinion that Raynor would have saved Kerrigan regardless of Zeratul's prophecy. It's not so simple as saying that he loves her, Kerrigan has become an embodiment of Ranor's failures. Pretty much all that Raynor has done or gotten close to since StarCraft began has ended in ruin. He was the Confederate Marshall for Mar Sara, and he gets arrested by the Confederacy while the planet is consumed by the Zerg and purged by the Protoss. He helps Mengsk overthrow the Confederacy in order to ensure a better government for the Terrans, only to have Mengsk reveal himself to be as bad as the Confederacy ever was. He brought his followers to Char where they were slaughtered by the Zerg, he fought to defend Aiur but Aiur fell anyway. He helped Kerrigan return to power, and she became the greatest threat to all life in the Sector. Mengsk now his archenemy, Kerrigan infested by the Zerg, Tassadar dead, Fenix dead.

Of all those things, Kerrigan's infestation probably hurt him most, in part because she was the one closest to him, but also because he blames himself for that one most of all. He should have realised what Mengsk intended. He should have stopped Kerrigan from fighting the Protoss. He should have been down there with her. That's why he's done some of the stupid things he's done - both trips to Char, his siding with Kerrigan against the UED, and so forth. Her loss represents everything that has gone wrong in Raynor's life. Everything he's touched has died or rotten. And yet he's still alive. He survives while he brings death to all those around him.

He needed to save Kerrigan because to save Kerrigan meant saving himself. It's only minimally about saving the woman he loves, mostly it's about proving that he can do something good, something that won't result in the death of the people around him, and that he can amend his past mistakes.

And that's why I find the ending so bittersweet. He thought he'd finally succeeded, but instead he brought his closest friend to his death. Again. I wish Raynor would have finally had the chance to have something good happen to him, but it seems he's destined to be the universe's punching bag. And with Kerrigan being the main character of Heart of the Swarm it feels like everything Ranor's done in this campaign is being taken away from him. Just like in Rebel Yell.

Raynor is really starting to depress me, actually.

[Turalyon]

I actually like this interpretation of Raynor's motivation for saving Kerrigan (even if Raynor had no idea that saving her would have even been possible) and perhaps this is the angle that Blizzard wanted to try and tell us. I think WoL's story is ultimately about Raynor's renewal of faith by overcoming his internal and external demons which culminated in a redemption of his failures through Kerrigan's de-infestation.

All that is well and good, but does the actual storytelling and how WoL plays out really telegraph that aforementioned message? A lot of people tend to disagree on this - the story-telling does not stand well enough on its own to support that through line. If a complete Starcraft neophyte played through this story it would not be unreasonable for them to think that Raynor's motivation to save Kerrigan was love (if not for saving the universe - which as I stated, can be missed).

Oh and don't worry about Raynor, FT. Although Raynor is destined to be the universe's punching bag, the renewal of Raynor's faith/self-belief is still a noteworthy achievement/victory for Raynor. As Fenix put it so aptly in SC1 "There is no shame in defeat as long as the spirit remains unconquered".

[FanaticTemplar]

Yes, I agree that this is not evident from Wings of Liberty alone. However, I do think it is consistent with the existing story of the two characters as presented throughout the sequence of games. I guess if I could judge StarCraft II in a vacuum I might be more irate, but I'm not really able to forget what I know :P.

Oh and don't worry about Raynor, FT. Although Raynor is destined to be the universe's punching bag, the renewal of Raynor's faith/self-belief is still a noteworthy achievement/victory for Raynor. As Fenix put it so aptly in SC1 "There is no shame in defeat as long as the spirit remains unconquered".

I hope so. It was a noteworthy victory, but it was stained by the loss of his friend. So Mengsk may have screwed it up for him again. But mostly, I think it depends largely on the choices Kerrigan makes in Heart of the Swarm. If Raynor loses her again, then there's no telling how badly he'll take it.

[RussianSpy27]

FT, what's the deal with your ongoing project? I don't know about others, but I personally cannot wait to read your commentary on the rest of the campaigns!

[FanaticTemplar]

I finished my last assignments yesterday, so I'm free now. I've already started playing through Queen of Blades.

[spychi]

now this is what I call group sexnecromancy

anyway, I finally read the whole thing and every time I've read another line of text I wanted to punch in the fucking face every member of the group responsible for this disaster that is called sc2 storyline

fuck someone should be fired for this piece of nonsense shit

[broodmywarcraft]

You think that's bad Spychi... At Gamespot's Reader's choice award, Mass Effect 2 was a close second for PC game of the year and in the lead for game of the year until the Starcraft 2 fanboys flooded the place and sent Starcraft 2 way ahead of the competition...I felt like punching a whole shit load of people after seeing that...

[TheAndrew]

Hi, Andrew of the OP here. A few things right off the bat: I'm flattered and pleased that my post has garnered debate in more than the original context. Thanks all. I work hard to maintain the OP, and don't want to get sucked into obsessively responding on two fronts. I may not respond often on this front, so if you actually want to maintain a debate with me, I'd suggest you move to my OP as it is my preferred location.

To address some general themes:

1) You treat other's opinions poorly
I try not to. Is that to say I've never lost my cool, typed something I regret, been overly dismissive? Of course not, but I always always try to be respectful of others even those that have not shown me the same respect. My OP is, admittedly, a bit of a firebrand. I regret the tone of certain sections, but, due to editing/word limits/real life I do not have the time to systematically edit the post. Yet, I have also added language that is considerably more consolatory than the first draft or two I had up to address that very issue. That said, I do feel that I have been very respectful to fellow forum-goers, and believe the 90+ pages bares that out to those who care to look.

2) It's just an opinion
Simply saying someone's argument is "just an opinion" does not disarms the situation. Allow me to demonstrate: It is just the opinion of people who say my argument is just opinion--satisfied with that counter-argument, of course not. Just saying something is an opinion does not defeat the argument surrounding that opinion. Let's take another obvious example. Mr. B kills another person. Mr. B is taken into custody and the following argument is made:

Some acts deserver to be punished.
Murder is an act that deserves to be punished.
Mr. B has committed murder.
Therefore, Mr. B deserves to be punished.

It is in no way satisfactory for Mr. B to produce the counter-argument:
Well, I should not be punished because murder being an act that should be punished is just your opinion.

Mr. B has missed the point. Just as critics are being disingenuous and missing the point when they proclaim everything I write was an opinion. I base my argumentation on statements that are true or false. We must get passed the notion that somehow opinions are not arguments or valid. There are unfounded opinions (to be sure) and then there are opinions that are based on sound argumentation.

Like all art forms, there are certain interpretations that go into understanding the art itself. A component of that interpretation will be opinion, but, if the opinions are good ones then they are based on true or false statements. Thus, my opinion that Raynor radically changes his perspective on Kerrigan is based on facts: Raynor says he is going to kill Kerrigan in True Colors that is a fact. It is a true or false statement. When I write that Raynor begins SC2 pining over her picture that too is a true or false statement. It is not my opinion that Raynor changed his mind, it is a fact. That contributes to my overall interpretation of SC2, but my statements are based on truth or falsehood.

3) You got your facts wrong!
THAT'S JUST YOUR OPINION :P
Seriously, I have updated the OP several times now. People were correct in calling me out on my equivocation of the Dark Voice being a Xel'Naga (and other issues). If I'm wrong about the facts tell me, I'll look into it. It does no good to merely offhandedly remark, "His facts are wrong, but I don't have the time to say where..." If you raise an issue raise it, don't hint at it or claim you have a knockout argument but are choosing to keep it hidden. I'm happy to, and genuinely want to, engage in this debate. I welcome corrections, because I realize that my argument will either get better because it is tighter or fall apart and I'll take it down thus no longer saying something stupid in public. It's a win-win for me!

4) The argument is holistic
I see many of my points in line of poor writing rather than retcons. Due to forum naming limits, I could not call my post: "[Spoilers] Retcons and Poor Writing Greatly Weakens SC2 Story" So, since I think the Overmind retcon is the most egregious, it gets the headline. The other points are meant to be understood holistically, no one of them sinks SC2, but all summed together (or even with many thrown out) the weight sinks the ship. No one is the knockout--I never claim otherwise--once you take out the blunt force trauma that is the Overmind retcon, SC2 dies due to a thousand cuts.

5) You didn't read the books!
We must all rank sources of information, not just in games but in life: Do I trust Source A or B more? Is this information more reliable than that? I have been upfront about the fact that I place highest priority on SC/BW game and manual. This would not change if I had read the books, I would simply view the books through the lens of the games. A change is a change. Thus, if a change to the SC/BW continuity takes place in the DT series, I will place the highest priority on the SC/BW material, because SC/BW is my highest/most trusted source. It seems that many of my critics cherry pick information to suit their arguments at the time. There's nothing wrong with that, but methodologies should be transparent. I feel that mine has been.



Again, I'm not sure how often I will reply here, but I really encourage you to stop by my OP. The stoyline debate should be held in full view of Blizzard, because I honestly believe they want to improve their future products (or keep them the same if you happened to like it). I'm really honored that my post has spread a bit from its original context, but, it is in the original context that I plan to nurture and maintain it. So if you really want to have this debate, come on over Please stop by so we can hash it out, I'd enjoy going into more depth with the individuals here.

http://us.battle.net:80/sc2/en/forum/topic/374721415

[spychi]

You think that's bad Spychi... At Gamespot's Reader's choice award, Mass Effect 2 was a close second for PC game of the year and in the lead for game of the year until the Starcraft 2 fanboys flooded the place and sent Starcraft 2 way ahead of the competition...I felt like punching a whole shit load of people after seeing that...

gamers don't think rationally, I don't blame them
I blame those fuckers who nominated SC2 in the first place

anyway GT.com choosed ME2 as the best RPG game of the year

hell yes