Balance Imbalance Changes

[GRUNT]

Tychus, I think a problem with your argument is that hypothetically, if a Zerg player is perfect and spawns larvae whenever possible while not morphing them (let's say 100 energy's worth), they will end up with the same amount of larvae as someone who accumulated 100 energy on a Queen and then stacked 4 Spawn Larvae at once.

So let's say that off 2 Hatcheries, you'd have 38 Larvae to spend during/after a fight. You claim that that's overpowered, but it's possible to achieve right now.

Unless you feel that the balance of Spawn Larvae hinges on the player not being able to be completely on top of it.

[TheRabidDeer]

Tychus, I think a problem with your argument is that hypothetically, if a Zerg player is perfect and spawns larvae whenever possible while not morphing them (let's say 100 energy's worth), they will end up with the same amount of larvae as someone who accumulated 100 energy on a Queen and then stacked 4 Spawn Larvae at once.

So let's say that off 2 Hatcheries, you'd have 38 Larvae to spend during/after a fight. You claim that that's overpowered, but it's possible to achieve right now.

Unless you feel that the balance of Spawn Larvae hinges on the player not being able to be completely on top of it.

Probably has more to do with the fact that if it stacked then you could just make 4 queens per base (or even just for 2 bases) and always have 17 larvae on each hatchery every 40 seconds.

[GRUNT]

Probably has more to do with the fact that if it stacked then you could just make 4 queens per base (or even just for 2 bases) and always have 17 larvae on each hatchery every 40 seconds.

Ah yeah, that's true :P. OH WELL! I guess Zerg macro is just destined to be hardcore compared to Terran and Protoss .

[TheEconomist]

Tychus, I think a problem with your argument is that hypothetically, if a Zerg player is perfect and spawns larvae whenever possible while not morphing them (let's say 100 energy's worth), they will end up with the same amount of larvae as someone who accumulated 100 energy on a Queen and then stacked 4 Spawn Larvae at once.

So let's say that off 2 Hatcheries, you'd have 38 Larvae to spend during/after a fight. You claim that that's overpowered, but it's possible to achieve right now.

Unless you feel that the balance of Spawn Larvae hinges on the player not being able to be completely on top of it.

One requires skill, one requires fingers.

Which would you rather a eSport be based around?

[Genopath]

I think the general consensus is that Zerg is the weakest race.

[GRUNT]

One requires skill, one requires fingers.

Which would you rather a eSport be based around?

RabidDeer raised a good point as to why Spawn Larvae stacking would be imbalanced, but this however, I don't buy.

At least, not as long as MULEs and Chrono Boost still function the way they do.

The extra minerals you get from MULEs may be used on infrastructure so that you can build more units later when you need them, or to build more units now if you're planning on making or recovering from an attack. In that sense, it's a lot like Spawn Larvae, only much more forgiving.

Likewise, Chronoboosting 2 Nexuses lets you get 4 Probes at about the same time it takes for Zerg to morph 4 Drones simultaneously, which is pretty respectable. It's even more impressive later in the game where Protoss have multiple production buildings, and Zerg need to worry about Larvae.

If after a fight, Protoss need to replenish their army and they've been stockpiling Energy, they can chronoboost their Warp Gates and get double production. If Zerg has been stockpiling Energy and don't have Larvae already spawning at their hatcheries, then they're worse off.

Like with Spawn Larvae, there's usually no benefit in 'saving' MULEs to cast only at a particular time (with the exception maybe if you're about to grab a gold expo).

While I agree that skill-based macro is good, I don't understand why you feel that that philosophy shouldn't apply to the Terrans and Protoss' macro mechanics.

[Nicol Bolas]

Like with Spawn Larvae, there's usually no benefit in 'saving' MULEs to cast only at a particular time (with the exception maybe if you're about to grab a gold expo).

While true, there's also no downside to saving MULES. That's the main problem: Spawn Larva is the most unforgiving. Every second you're not using it is a second of larva production forever lost.

[GRUNT]

While true, there's also no downside to saving MULES. That's the main problem: Spawn Larva is the most unforgiving. Every second you're not using it is a second of larva production forever lost.

I actually do feel that there's is a downside to not constantly using MULEs and that that's just the same principle as remembering to spend down your cash. If you've been MULEing constantly, you'll still end up with the same amount of cash as you would if you spammed all your MULEs at once, but you may have had minerals earlier that you needed.

That said, we're definitely arguing the same thing - Spawn Larvae is indeed much more unforgiving.

[Alterran]

I want to see sentries forcefield time cut by 25% at least, its just too good in the early-mid pushing.

[Nicol Bolas]

I actually do feel that there's is a downside to not constantly using MULEs and that that's just the same principle as remembering to spend down your cash.

Yes, but if your macro is slipping (which is why you wouldn't constantly spam them to begin with), then you can recover from your mistakes. You can't with Spawn Larva.

Imagine if a player delays their Spawn Larva and MULEs by just 5 seconds. That is, they cast the spell 5 seconds after they have the energy/available Hatchery. For the Terran, they effectively get a single 5 second delay over the course of their play; the time only gets factored in once. For the Zerg, every SL cycle incurs a cumulative time penalty.

I want to see sentries forcefield time cut by 25% at least, its just too good in the early-mid pushing.

To be honest, I think FF is OK as it stands. It's powerful, yes, but that's not bad in and of itself. If they were to nerf it, I would prefer that they just gave it HP (but made the attack priority so low that you could never accidentally attack them). Enough that a few Zerglings beating on them couldn't kill them, but massage of ranged units could. Like maybe 700 HP, with no attributes (neither Light nor Armored nor Structure nor Massive).