Balance Imbalance Changes

[GnaReffotsirk]

Yes, which is a nice twist. I'll post a map here with the GreenTeaAI and with the changes.

Edit:

Here, 30s SL. This is on LT, ZvT. There's also tips that would pop-up every 60s which shows minerals and vespene collected in total. It comes with GreenTeaAI.

[MulletBen]

I don't think you could reduce drone morphing time. It seems to me that that would greatly impact early game.
After trying it, I'm not too sure about 30s SL. Early game it makes it much harder to time, while mid-game I think it might prove unwieldy; with 2 queens per hatchery, you'll always have excess energy accumulating in both your queens at about the same rate, meaning it will take time before either of them can cast a creep tumor without sacrificing larva. If you have 3 queens and 2 bases, you'll be able to cast spawn larva some of the time, but I think it would be hard to keep track of which queens have how much energy, and so on.

I know I shouldn't be complaining about a potential buff, but I think that reducing the time would make larva spawning a little more of a hassle than it already is.

Global larva limit makes no sense to me, since there are already hatchery limits of 19. I see what you are trying to accomplish, but it seems to me a very inelegant solution. Potentially, you could have 19 larva on one hatchery, 19 on another, 14 on a third, 6 on a fourth and a maximum of 2 on the last.

I do agree that SOMETHING needs to be done with spawn larva, since it is already fairly inelegant and rigid, but I'm not sure lowering the time to 30 will help the mechanic. It would certainly change it, and potentially make it more fluid, I just don't know if the new direction makes it any less frustrating as a mechanic.

EDIT: Also, you are correct Tychus, I should have checked before posting. It was indeed patch 7 where the damage was changed.

[GnaReffotsirk]

How about increasing the queen regen for it to have 25 at 30s than 25 at 40s currently?

[Wankey]

Doesn't really help. The problem is that Queens dont have a spammable ability that you can use to quickly negate a failure in macro.

Chrono boost, you can spam it to help boost production in almost anything.

Terrans, you can simply spam mule to get a huge boost in minerals.

Queen? Tough luck, You gonna spam 10 creep tumors?

[MulletBen]

How about increasing the queen regen for it to have 25 at 30s than 25 at 40s currently?

All that would do is buff the ability and make you click back at your hatchery more often, which I really don't think is a good thing. I would actually prefer it as 25 to 40s, with larva at 30s, than 25 to 30s, with larva at 30s. Somehow, I feel we are trying to solve two entirely different perceived problems.

My problem with spawn larva is not its balance; its the strict rigidity of the timing, and its unforgiving nature. The suggestion of lowering the time to 30s changes the strict rigidity, and does make it a lot more fluid. On the other hand, it also makes it more complicated, and I was expressing concern over whether an increase in complexity is justified by a change in rigidity.

All your second suggestion seems to do, to me, is take the existing mechanic and make it more powerful, while maintaining the same structure. This is entirely contrary to what I believe the problem was, but at the same time this topic is about balance, so thoughts on the execution of the mechanic are probably best saved for another topic.

With that in mind, I'll simply say: I have no problems with the balance of Spawn Larva. If anything, I think it leaves the player too reliant on queens for the production of larva, and not enough on the hatcheries themselves.

[GnaReffotsirk]

Ah, yes, we are trying to deal with two separate things. I on the other hand see the lack of production capability as some issue that if dealt with, may almost change things.

The drone production time for example, would allow Zerg to match the other race's econ while opening production capabilities with the 30s SL pops.

This way, Zerg can have the needed bulk of units, with the same econ strength with the enemy.

I see this solving some issues particularly in regards to having equal army strengths at periods of times.

It doesn't have to mean Z will spend less, as they do spend more to get the needed force strength. In fact, Zerg will still have to expand and spend more on econ in order to create that necessary amount of units and waves to meet the opposing race's army without getting, say steam-rolled.

Terrans can still do their push-reinforce, while Zerg can effectively send waves after waves to slow the advance, or even destroy it with proper positioning.

I say this since, atm, imho, zerg needs to expo 1 per 1 enemy base, at full saturation to compete economically. and at least 2 hatch per 3 production structures to compete production-wise, with regards to how army forces compare between the two races. Also taking careful note that as the bulk of the terran/protoss armies increase, the Zerg's army becomes less and less effective than it was when the counts were low.

[DemolitionSquid]

I really think Spawn Larva would be better off if it was simply stack-able. It would solve so many issues.

[TheEconomist]

Then it would be devolve into a brain dead mechanic. The way it is now you have to keep a good sense of timing and come back to your base numerous times.

[minerals]

I really think Spawn Larva would be better off if it was simply stack-able. It would solve so many issues.

I think that might be fairly op. I could spawn like 15 roaches at the same time and overrun someone like protoss.

[DemolitionSquid]

Then it would be devolve into a brain dead mechanic. The way it is now you have to keep a good sense of timing and come back to your base numerous times.

So Terran and Protoss are allowed to have brain dead mechanics that you can spam if you miss them, but Zerg have to actually be good?

I think that might be fairly op. I could spawn like 15 roaches at the same time and overrun someone like protoss.

You can already stockpile 19 larva on a Hatchery. It just takes 2 minutes. To instantly get 19 larva from one Hatchery with stacking would still take 4 Queens. They could do it every 25 seconds, true, but then you just need to adjust the energy it costs and the number of Larva it produces. If Spawn Larva cost 50 energy instead of 25 I think it would work fine.