On Bayonets and Shields

[phazonjunkie]

what kind of bayonette would be effective vs powered armor, or a force field, or even some reinforced Zerg caparace.

ahem


At any rate it's been shown (quite clearly) that zerg aren't immune to blunt force trauma to the head. I don't imagine protoss would be either.

[Norfindel]

The effectiveness of a bayonet would depend on the force of the thrust. Or in this case, the power output of the Marine's armour. Assuming, of course, that the blade is made of a sufficiently sturdy material; which is reasonable since the gauss rifle's ammo are themselves made from such a material.

energy = 1/2 * m * v^2
So, i think that unless you can move your arm at hypersonic speeds, the bullet is better.

ahem

Yes, i said that myself earlier in this same thread. If they're vibroweapons or monomolecular, that's another story.

At any rate it's been shown (quite clearly) that zerg aren't immune to blunt force trauma to the head. I don't imagine protoss would be either.

That's assuming the Zealot didn't kill you in 10 different ways before your fist has a chance to land, even then: force fields.
The issue with the Zerg isn't killing one Zergling, it's killing 100 Zerglings that are running towards you. Just ask Kerrigan about it.

But seriously, i already written all this in this thread before.

[mr. peasant]

energy = 1/2 * m * v^2
So, i think that unless you can move your arm at hypersonic speeds, the bullet is better.

Of course the bullet is better. That's why the gauss rifle is the primary whilst the bayonet is the backup. My point was that people saying that a bayonet can't penetrate a Marine's power armour are likely going by modern standards and forgetting to consider that the Marine's bayonet would be thrust using the power armour's superhuman strength.

[Norfindel]

Of course the bullet is better. That's why the gauss rifle is the primary whilst the bayonet is the backup. My point was that people saying that a bayonet can't penetrate a Marine's power armour are likely going by modern standards and forgetting to consider that the Marine's bayonet would be thrust using the power armour's superhuman strength.

It would be better to use something like a pike to pierce solid armor. A knife is very inefficient, as you cannot really cut tru it, and the material needs to be much more resistant than the armor, or the sharpened tip is going to break easily.

[mr. peasant]

However, a pike would cost significantly more than a bayonet and would require a position for it to be stored when not in use (as the gauss rifle requires both hands to operate). As for its build material, who's to say such material does not exist given that we know rifle ammo can do so, as well as Hydralisk blades and (presumably) Zergling claws.

[Norfindel]

However, a pike would cost significantly more than a bayonet and would require a position for it to be stored when not in use (as the gauss rifle requires both hands to operate).

It doesn't needs to be a long pike, just have a the form of a pike head, to be able to pierce the metal. A knife is designed to cut thru much softer matherials.

As for its build material, who's to say such material does not exist given that we know rifle ammo can do so, as well as Hydralisk blades and (presumably) Zergling claws.

Rifle ammo can do so, because it's travelling very fast, and it deforms with the impact, and it's a spike, not a little knife.
About Zerg blades, one has to assume they're incredibly resistant, much in a way as spider silk is much more resistant than any synthetic materials we use for ropes. IIRC, Ultralisk blades are supposed to be monomolecular, yet it's never stated that the Terrans have this technology (neither the Protoss, but they use energy weapons).

[mr. peasant]

Perhaps but I don't really know what you're getting at. The cinematic with Warfield clearly demonstrates how a bayonet is useful to a Marine. What I've done is outline how such a concept is indeed plausible. That the idea isn't 100% practical when placed under scrutiny doesn't matter since Starcraft is fiction and so doesn't have to completely adhere to the rules of our world.

[Norfindel]

Perhaps but I don't really know what you're getting at. The cinematic with Warfield clearly demonstrates how a bayonet is useful to a Marine. What I've done is outline how such a concept is indeed plausible. That the idea isn't 100% practical when placed under scrutiny doesn't matter since Starcraft is fiction and so doesn't have to completely adhere to the rules of our world.

I'm just mentioning that bayonettes are used today, even when they aren't very used, for the psychological effect, and guessing that they're even more rarely used against Terran or Protoss with their powered armors, and even against Zerg it's difficult to see them doing a lot of difference, but at least they're cheap to make, even if a pike would be better against armor.

In sci-fi you must adhere to the rules of our world, unless it's specifically mentioned that some special discovery allows you to bypass something, or do something that looks strange.

For example: the Protoss can do pretty much whatever they want to, because their tech is completely unknown to us. The Terran are more complicated to handle. You could say a bayonette can pierce thru their armor, but how does it do it? If it's the same matherial, it's thinner, and more prone to break than the armor. If it's extremely resistant, why the armor doesn't use the same matherial? Questions like that.
For the Protoss, yeah, they use energy knives. They can cut the shit out of everything. Problem solved.

[mr. peasant]

The answer you postulate can be answered if the bayonet and armour are made from different materials. As for why they would be, it would be because toughness is not the only factor determining a material's suitability for armour. For instance, things such as density (affecting the armour's total weight), manufacturing method (some materials might be harder to manipulate into complex shapes), costs and availability (you need much more material to make a full set of armour than a single bayonet) would be things that need to be considered for power armour that would be less of an issue in designing a bayonet (low amount of material needed, simple design/shape, etc).

Also, it is also worth pointing out that the bayonet would not need to penetrate the armour in order to be effective. If you look at a Marine's power armour, there are lots of exposed, potentially sensitive, components that can be damaged and possibly even penetrated into the flesh underneath, particularly around the joints.

[Norfindel]

Ok, so you have powered armor that allows you to use more strength to attack with a bayonet, but that same extra strength also allows you to carry heavier armor. How different is that from someone trying to attack a guy in full plate armor with a dagger?

About the new Terran armor, yeah, i agree, if any if those things around the stomach are frail and critical (and they certainly look like they are), the design is a piece of crap. I would be much happier to wear BW armor, that at least is fully protected. In both cases the visor is probably easy to break with the bayonette, but it wouldn't be that easy to get into melee and attack them there, if they have bullets.

Anyways, i don't say that it's completely useless, but it's probably much less likely to make a diference than today, and a pointy weapon like a war hammer would be better against solid armor than a bayonette, no matter what's the material.