On Bayonets and Shields

[Pandonetho]

You haven't read 'Heaven's Devils' yet have you?

He doesn't strike me as the type of guy to care much about the lore. So I think it's a safe bet to say he hasn't read it yet.

[Norfindel]

Bayonettes have always been backup weapons, so of course there are weapons that are better.
One might argue that a pistol is a better backup and yes it is! But even that one will run out of ammo eventually.
And excuse me for saying the obvious, but a combat scenario will change drastically when you run out ammo.

BTW as far as we've seen and read, a marine's armor rarely stops those 8mm spikes. (All I keep reading in the novels are: "full of holes".) The only time they don't penetrate seems to be when they hit at wide angles.

As for cost of producing mono molecular bayonette being too much (or any such "simple" hardware....relatively speaking) - Well I'm certainly never gonna buy that now that blizzard shows the Terrans have the production capability to rebuild and cover entire planets.

Don't worry, soldiers carry all the ammo they need, and get extra ammo on a regular basis. That's why there are constant efforts at developing good caseless ammunition, and the caliber went down from 7.62x51mm to 5.56x45mm: to carry more ammo. Running out of it isn't a common case by any measure of the word.

Armor is worn because it stops bullets. If it doesn't, it's better to not wear any armor that will slow you down, making you an easier target, not stop any bullets, and is freaking expensive in top of that.

The only justification for wearing it, would be because the weapon cannot be fired without using powered armor, and because of NBC shielding, which are very good reasons, but then combat tactics won't change too much from what we see now, and a 10-second life-expectancy would be too low, because most people isn't stupid enough to fire completely exposed, and take cover.

There's just no way you would build powered armor to be used for 10 seconds. Instead of that, it's cheaper to build any kind of vehicle that can actually do something before getting destroyed. Hell, seeing how complex the armor is, it's probably cheaper even if the guys last more than 10 seconds.

[PhanttoM]

If we're talking real life soldiers, then you're absolutely right.
SC marines are a different matter as we've seen.

As you said, we should disregard the 10 second life expectancy claim - Not only does it sound absurd, but the novels give us the more plausible picture.
But there are more reasons to wearing power armor - It makes marching long distances seem effortless for one thing, but lets not forget that these are soldiers that operate on different planets and in space.

It's just a shame this has never really been shown or written, since every planet has a breathable atmosphere.

[Pandonetho]

But there are more reasons to wearing power armor - It makes marching long distances seem effortless for one thing, but lets not forget that these are soldiers that operate on different planets and in space.

Yeah, it's also been said that running is almost effortless too, and the suit has functions like superimposing the surrounding area into a map, and allowing marines to fall from 20 feet and land safely.

[Roland]

I was hoping the marines on Korhal would have shield and bayonets. They seem more effective for suppressing rebels and civilians than for killing alien monsters.

I think the issue of Warfield only taking out 1 zergling with it could be justified by the assumption that marines aren't supposed to be fighting solo. Imagine if instead of just Warfield there had been one or two dozen more marines, which is perfectly reasonable. They would have been very formidable for close-quarters combat, and they could have quite possibly survived minutes longer.

Also, I'd love a bayonet against Protoss. Zealots are giant, super strong martial artists, and they're phasing into energy to charge you before ripping you limb-from-limb with psi blades. I don't want to be stuck with no extra close combat potential when I'm fighting a zealot. Not that any marines stands much chance against a charging zealot, but a giant neosteal bayonet would go a long way towards peace of mind. Think Shelob and Sam.

Let's remember Tychus though. I can't count the number of times he tackled and crushed some poor enemy soldier in Heaven's Devils. Not to mention the time he tried to [minor spoiler] Hulk Smash Raynor, and when he bum rushed the Dominion guard. Some people are predisposed to close-quarters combat. Imagine if someone had given Tychus a rifle with a bayonet. I have a feeling he wouldn't have fired a single shot in a battle, as he would've just been impaling everything in sight.

[Norfindel]

Fighting melee against Zerg: you get outnumbered, and die.
Fighting melee against Protoss: you get outskilled, and die. Anyways, a knife vs a force field doesn't seems like the best idea in the world.
But i think it could be used in really small places vs Zerg/Terran. If you happend to surround 1 Zealot, can cause some damage, if more Marines keep coming as the others keep dying, at least until there are so many corpses, that you cannot approach anymore (Terran armor is bulky). Still the Zealot can jump to a better position.

[mr. peasant]

But here's the counter-argument though:

When out of ammo and fighting with a bayonet, you kill some before you die. Without a bayonet, you can't fight back and you stll die anyway. Hence, with bayonet is better than without. And cost-wise, it's reasonable to assume it is relatively small compared to the gauss rifle and power armour.

[phazonjunkie]

I don't want to be stuck with no extra close combat potential when I'm fighting a zealot. Not that any marines stands much chance against a charging zealot, but a giant neosteal bayonet would go a long way towards peace of mind. Think Shelob and Sam.

Let's remember Tychus though. I can't count the number of times he tackled and crushed some poor enemy soldier in Heaven's Devils. Not to mention the time he tried to .................................................. ................ Some people are predisposed to close-quarters combat. Imagine if someone had given Tychus a rifle with a bayonet. I have a feeling he wouldn't have fired a single shot in a battle, as he would've just been impaling everything in sight.

This

When out of ammo and fighting with a bayonet, you kill some before you die. Without a bayonet, you can't fight back and you stll die anyway. Hence, with bayonet is better than without. And cost-wise, it's reasonable to assume it is relatively small compared to the gauss rifle and power armour.

And that

Fighting melee against Zerg: you get outnumbered, and die.
Fighting melee against Protoss: you get outskilled, and die. Anyways, a knife vs a force field doesn't seems like the best idea in the world.

"And remember: Marines DIE, that's what we're here for."

[Norfindel]

Yeah, sure, for the cost, why not issue them? But seriously, what kind of bayonette would be effective vs powered armor, or a force field, or even some reinforced Zerg caparace (like a Roach)? I doubt they would be reasonably effective in that kind of hi-tech combat, but surely a knife is useful even when not in combat, and they're as cheap as it gets, so why not?

Marines aren't there to die, they're there to damage the enemy.

[mr. peasant]

The effectiveness of a bayonet would depend on the force of the thrust. Or in this case, the power output of the Marine's armour. Assuming, of course, that the blade is made of a sufficiently sturdy material; which is reasonable since the gauss rifle's ammo are themselves made from such a material.