Disappearing Middle Class in America

[Norfindel]

Dejai, those number are not politics. Those numbers are a reflection of how fucked-up the system is.

It's sad. Humanity needs people with different knowledge and specializations to continue to grow. Nobody can possibly know all that is necessary for humanity to prosper. We are a species that needs to work in groups to prosper. Greed and concentration of wealth works against that.

I hope that people finally understands that at some time, but power and money can be blinding. At the end, even the people at the pinnacle of power could have lived in a better world if they would be fairer instead of so needlesly greedy.

[DemolitionSquid]

Dejai, those number are not politics. Those numbers are a reflection of how fucked-up the system is.

It's sad. Humanity needs people with different knowledge and specializations to continue to grow. Nobody can possibly know all that is necessary for humanity to prosper. We are a species that needs to work in groups to prosper. Greed and concentration of wealth works against that.

I hope that people finally understands that at some time, but power and money can be blinding. At the end, even the people at the pinnacle of power could have lived in a better world if they would be fairer instead of so needlesly greedy.

Well said good sir. We have the ability to surpass our evolution and focus on the survival of all, yet we continue to just be animals and live with survival of the fittest. Medicine was just a first step on a road towards everyone surviving.

[//MavericK\\]

Dejai, those number are not politics. Those numbers are a reflection of how fucked-up the system is.

It's sad. Humanity needs people with different knowledge and specializations to continue to grow. Nobody can possibly know all that is necessary for humanity to prosper. We are a species that needs to work in groups to prosper. Greed and concentration of wealth works against that.

I hope that people finally understands that at some time, but power and money can be blinding. At the end, even the people at the pinnacle of power could have lived in a better world if they would be fairer instead of so needlesly greedy.

While I agree with you completely...the overarching issue still circles back to limited resources and overpopulation. The reason there are rich people at all is because they have a strangle-hold on most avenues of distribution, manufacturing, infrastructure, technology and political leverage. They have all this power primarily because our Capitalist system in many ways demands it. Money + power = the hunger for more of both.

Demo is right in the above post. We are the first species on this planet that has the opportunity to break out of the survival-of-the-fittest, look-out for-numero-uno-first mentality. But until we can solve the resources issue, Eutopia and 99.9% equality between every man, woman and child on Earth will be almost impossible.

The other alternative, as you said, would be the have-nots taking matters into their own hands. And as you pointed out, this would be a terrifying answer. As we all know, history has taught us that this rarely, if ever, has yielded positive results. One group of tyrants are simply exchanged for another group of tyrants.

Bumming a StarCraft reference...the corrupt and greedy Confederacy lead to the uber corrupt, uber greedy Dominion.

[mikill]

1. I live in Calgary Alberta.
2. I know what a liberalist is, and I have no problem with freedom. I just think there's something seriously wrong when the "supposed" richest country in the world has ghettos. Socialist policies are to help elevate the standard of living for all people, so every child born has the same opportunity to excel. Instead of what we have now, where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, and children born to poor parents are at a disadvantage to children born of rich parents, through no fault of their own.

Are you referring to new left or old left?

Ottawa resident here. That claim is really unfounded.

Sorry, I was just thinking about the incident a couple of months back and assumed that.

I don't know where in Canada you live, you never said. But again, I live in Calgary, and I have have access to all those things I mentioned, and I am certifiably middle-class.

I live in a mostly farming community, in the middle of no where near the US Border. "Because I'm proud to be near America where at least I know I am free and I won't forget the Men across the border who died who gave that right to me!" LOL but it is so true.

Well said good sir. We have the ability to surpass our evolution and focus on the survival of all, yet we continue to just be animals and live with survival of the fittest. Medicine was just a first step on a road towards everyone surviving.

So you believe that everything would be better with socialism. I let me ask you something, think of this as a factor in the ideology you believe in. How much is a Wisers Very Old 18 Years Whiskey cost you at a the place where you buy your alcohol, Demo?

[DemolitionSquid]

Are you referring to new left or old left?

How vague of you.

I live in a mostly farming community, in the middle of no where near the US Border. "Because I'm proud to be near America where at least I know I am free and I won't forget the Men across the border who died who gave that right to me!" LOL but it is so true.

In what way did America give me the right to freedom? When they invaded in 1812 and we kicked their asses, or when we got freedom from the British on our own accord without a violent revolution, or when put into law our socialized health care while you still pay exorbitant amounts for basic pharmaceuticals?

So you believe that everything would be better with socialism. I let me ask you something, think of this as a factor in the ideology you believe in. How much is a Wisers Very Old 18 Years Whiskey cost you at a the place where you buy your alcohol, Demo?

I believe that you look at Russia and China and North Korea and go "lulz." When really, none are or were ever socialist. Socialism is about equality and community. Not lying to your population and hording the wealth and food you steal from the farmers to feed the lawmakers. Quite simply, socialism has never failed because its never actually been implemented.

I support socialist policies. I support raising the standard of living so all people start with their basic material needs like food, shelter, clothing, health care and education. I support sharing of resources so that every person can pursue their higher goals without worrying if they'll be able to eat next week. I'm not suggesting that there cannot be rich people, who worked hard to have better, non essential things like a pool in their backyard. I'm suggesting we have the ability to abolish poor people who have nothing, and are simply unwilling to take that leap because its ingrained into our heads that if one person has it all, someone else must therefore have nothing and that's just how it always has to be. Everyone believes that there are only win/lose situations and no alternatives, and they are absolutely wrong.

To use your alcohol analogy, I have no idea how much it cost because I do not drink it. I don't need it. There's nothing saying a person who loves making alcohol and people who love drinking it couldn't exist in a socialist society, and that a socialist society cannot have an economy. It just means that there are standards in place to make sure everyone has a chance to produce or buy Whiskey because they don't have to spend their money on essentials, like real food. They can experience life and enjoy it instead of merely living.

It's also entirely possible I've just been jaded by Star Trek. No famine, no cold. Where a person can still pursue their own life dreams if they put the effort into it. We don't need replicators. We just need a willingness to share.

[mikill]

How vague of you.

But so true. If you believe in socialism you usually believe in both. I understand the ideology in new left however I will understand the ideology of old left.

In what way did America give me the right to freedom? When they invaded in 1812 and we kicked their asses, or when we got freedom from the British on our own accord without a violent revolution, or when put into law our socialized health care while you still pay exorbitant amounts for basic pharmaceuticals?

Well my great great grandfather's family escaped to freedom by coming to the USA and I believe the war of 1812 was more of a draw, as both capitals were destroyed.

I believe that you look at Russia and China and North Korea and go "lulz." When really, none are or were ever socialist. Socialism is about equality and community. Not lying to your population and hording the wealth and food you steal from the farmers to feed the lawmakers. Quite simply, socialism has never failed because its never actually been implemented.

So new left and you would like more crown corporations?

I support socialist policies. I support raising the standard of living so all people start with their basic material needs like food, shelter, clothing, health care and education. I support sharing of resources so that every person can pursue their higher goals without worrying if they'll be able to eat next week. I'm not suggesting that there cannot be rich people, who worked hard to have better, non essential things like a pool in their backyard. I'm suggesting we have the ability to abolish poor people who have nothing, and are simply unwilling to take that leap because its ingrained into our heads that if one person has it all, someone else must therefore have nothing and that's just how it always has to be. Everyone believes that there are only win/lose situations and no alternatives, and they are absolutely wrong.

Poor people is more of a diease than anything. Let me rephase this. Poor people don't have an attitude to not work. It is usually a disorder. But the problem is it costs so much money to take them off the streets that the government is more focused on the socially handicapped. Like people with downs (I don't think thats how it's spelt) syndrome. What even worst is the fact is the people that have these disorders don't have to pay as much as everyone in socialism.

To use your alcohol analogy, I have no idea how much it cost because I do not drink it. I don't need it. There's nothing saying a person who loves making alcohol and people who love drinking it couldn't exist in a socialist society, and that a socialist society cannot have an economy. It just means that there are standards in place to make sure everyone has a chance to produce or buy Whiskey because they don't have to spend their money on essentials, like real food. They can experience life and enjoy it instead of merely living.

It's also entirely possible I've just been jaded by Star Trek. No famine, no cold. Where a person can still pursue their own life dreams if they put the effort into it. We don't need replicators. We just need a willingness to share.

What the heck with Star Trek? Ok you must drink some form of alcohol right? And it must cost you something, right? I just want to explain to you something.

[DemolitionSquid]

But so true. If you believe in socialism you usually believe in both. I understand the ideology in new left however I will understand the ideology of old left.

I believe in what I believe. I'm not going to align myself with one side or the other when neither satisfies my position in full.

Well my great great grandfather's family escaped to freedom by coming to the USA and I believe the war of 1812 was more of a draw, as both capitals were destroyed.

What do you mean by escaped? Escaped what exactly? The British rule over Canada that hurt nobody and still doesn't? Or are you saying he defected to the Americans during the war?

So new left and you would like more crown corporations?

If by "crown corporations" you mean I believe the government should have more control over the base industries like food and shelter so everyone has their basic material needs met in equality, then yes.

Poor people is more of a disease than anything. Let me rephrase this. Poor people don't have an attitude to not work. It is usually a disorder. But the problem is it costs so much money to take them off the streets that the government is more focused on the socially handicapped. Like people with Down Syndrome. What even worst is the fact is the people that have these disorders don't have to pay as much as everyone in socialism.

I'm sure I want to discuss ethics with a person who puts the poor in the same category as those born with disabilities. I don't want to go so far as to say you're suggesting we purge our disabled and poor in a cleansing genocide...

What the heck with Star Trek? Ok you must drink some form of alcohol right? And it must cost you something, right? I just want to explain to you something.

Yes I drink. But what could you possibly explain to me out of that? I could still get alcohol for a reasonable price in a society with nothing but simply the better social foundation I advocate.

[mikill]

What do you mean by escaped? Escaped what exactly? The British rule over Canada that hurt nobody and still doesn't? Or are you saying he defected to the Americans during the war?

No they came came to America to escape prosecution. That had nothing to do with the war of 1812. I said it in one sentence to type less.

If by "crown corporations" you mean I believe the government should have more control over the base industries like food and shelter so everyone has their basic material needs met in equality, then yes.

Do you know what a crown corporation is? It's a state controlled monopoly company. See in alberta there are very few of these, in Ontario there are a lot. Just to name a few: LCBO (alcohol control), OLG (lottery), Hydro One (electricity) and CBC (TV). With these companies you don't get the fair deal, you pay more than you should because of the monopoly. I don't even watch CBC because of the crap the spread and they are so bias.

I'm sure I want to discuss ethics with a person who puts the poor in the same category as those born with disabilities. I don't want to go so far as to say you're suggesting we purge our disabled and poor in a cleansing genocide...

What? No, your thinking of the Bosnian war.

Yes I drink. But what could you possibly explain to me out of that? I could still get alcohol for a reasonable price in a society with nothing but simply the better social foundation I advocate.

A crown corporation jacks the price up, doubling it in some cases. A socialist Government would do the same only worse. I'll prove it to you by showing you an example just pick a brand, any brand. I'll compare a state run monopoly over Alberta's Privatized alcohol system.

[DemolitionSquid]

No they came came to America to escape prosecution. That had nothing to do with the war of 1812. I said it in one sentence to type less.

Why, and how, was your family being prosecuted?

Do you know what a crown corporation is? It's a state controlled monopoly company. See in alberta there are very few of these, in Ontario there are a lot. Just to name a few: LCBO (alcohol control), OLG (lottery), Hydro One (electricity) and CBC (TV). With these companies you don't get the fair deal, you pay more than you should because of the monopoly. I don't even watch CBC because of the crap the spread and they are so bias.

Oh, you meant the extreme. Did I ever mention the extreme? I don't think so.

I'm just saying its possible for the government to ensure BASE NECESSITIES while an economy of extras still exists. For example, the government would produce cheap standardized meals through taxes, but those who made more would still buy from restaurants and independent supermarkets and enjoy "luxury." I don't support monopoly, monopoly leads to corruption and abuse. But I also don't support starving children.

What? No, your thinking of the Bosnian war.

Am I?

There are multiple ways to solve the problem of poverty. Doing nothing isn't one of them. Continuing on the same path of economic and class disparity isn't one of them. That's been proven countless times through history. It always ends in revolt and violence, and we just keep making the same mistakes.

All men are created equal, but some or more equal than other. And its simply not the best way.

A crown corporation jacks the price up, doubling it in some cases. A socialist Government would do the same only worse. I'll prove it to you by showing you an example just pick a brand, any brand. I'll compare a state run monopoly over Alberta's Privatized alcohol system.

As I said, I don't support monopolies, and I don't support your uneducated idea of what of pure socialism is. I merely support more social policies to raise the base standard of living of all citizens so no one is living in a slum eating out of trashcans.

[mikill]

Why, and how, was your family being prosecuted?

I am not quite sure my parents and grandparents said someone about being the 9the 6-9th (i can't remember) generation in Canada and there where 4 additional generations in the USA. All I know is that they didn't like something they had to escape the country and moved to the USA.

Oh, you meant the extreme. Did I ever mention the extreme? I don't think so.

I'm just saying its possible for the government to ensure BASE NECESSITIES while an economy of extras still exists. For example, the government would produce cheap standardized meals through taxes, but those who made more would still buy from restaurants and independent supermarkets and enjoy "luxury." I don't support monopoly, monopoly leads to corruption and abuse. But I also don't support starving children.

Am I?

There are multiple ways to solve the problem of poverty. Doing nothing isn't one of them. Continuing on the same path of economic and class disparity isn't one of them. That's been proven countless times through history. It always ends in revolt and violence, and we just keep making the same mistakes.

All men are created equal, but some or more equal than other. And its simply not the best way.

So you believe in inequality? Ethnic cleansing is bad and is no joke.

As I said, I don't support monopolies, and I don't support your uneducated idea of what of pure socialism is. I merely support more social policies to raise the base standard of living of all citizens so no one is living in a slum eating out of trashcans.

It is funny how your living in a conservative area, but you have the opposite views. Do you work for the oil companies? Your free to believe in socialistic ideas, just like I am free to believe in change from a monarchy to a republic for Canada. Also do believe a man or women has the right to chose to receive help for the government or not (should it be forced apon them)?