[Finale Spoiler] Finale discussion

[Dalamar]

But thats EXACTLY why it works better as mission. At that point Arthas isn´t a soulless Monster, he is on his way there. Making it a mission aligns the players goals with Arthases, you don´t exactly want to but you have to do it and you hate that stupid Demon for forcing you to do it.

You do make a valid point, but I think you are forgetting one other possibility. Killing those villagers, while not wanting to, didn't make me hate the Demon. It made me hate Arthas, the guy I was controlling, and it made me feel detached from and dispassionate about the entire affair.

In any case, being a matter of emotions, it is entirely expected, that different people would react in different ways to that situation.

Possibly but not with Kerrigan as main character. WoL showed it itself, the Queen of Blades is a finished character. Kerrigan being evil is the point of BW and as long as she stays evil they can´t really do much more with her.

Again, I would argue, that the Queen of Blades appeared a finished character, because of a failure on the WoL writer's part, not because they were out of possibilities. On a different issue, as I said, I'm not against the ending. De-infestation creates a lot of opportunities. I'm more concerned with how, these writers, will handle said opportunities.

[Eligor]

Possibly but not with Kerrigan as main character. WoL showed it itself, the Queen of Blades is a finished character. Kerrigan being evil is the point of BW and as long as she stays evil they can´t really do much more with her.

That's a shoddy excuse used by bad writers. And in any case, the point of BW is not Kerrigan being evil but Kerrigan being dangerous. Infested Kerrigan was never meant to be a character we get into the head of or fully understand, her potential is not in inner development of personality but in interactions with other characters and the danger and conflict she inevitably brings. And de-infesting her actually removes a level of moral ambiguity from her dealings with Mengsk, Raynor and Zeratul, since all it does is certify her as a "good" character in the players' eyes and allows us to get into her head and present us with hundred percent "mundane" and understandable human emotions rather than presenting an inevitably disappointing look into the mind of Kerrigan the Queen of Blades.

[unentschieden]

You do make a valid point, but I think you are forgetting one other possibility. Killing those villagers, while not wanting to, didn't make me hate the Demon. It made me hate Arthas, the guy I was controlling, and it made me feel detached from and dispassionate about the entire affair.

In any case, being a matter of emotions, it is entirely expected, that different people would react in different ways to that situation.

I´ll stress it again, the scene isn´t supposed to make you like Arthas, you ARE supposed to hate him by the end of the human campaign. His fall isn´t a plottwist like Kerrigans was. Using Frostmourne was the point of no return but basically everything before was setting up the scene.

I don´t know how you can both hate him and feel detached from him. Hate is a quite passionate feeling I´d say.

Again, I would argue, that the Queen of Blades appeared a finished character, because of a failure on the WoL writer's part, not because they were out of possibilities. On a different issue, as I said, I'm not against the ending. De-infestation creates a lot of opportunities. I'm more concerned with how, these writers, will handle said opportunities.

Id rather say that the SC:BW story wrote her into a corner. She resolves all her personal conflicts as Queen of Blades, there is nothing left for her to do at the end of SC:BW.

That's a shoddy excuse used by bad writers. And in any case, the point of BW is not Kerrigan being evil but Kerrigan being dangerous. Infested Kerrigan was never meant to be a character we get into the head of or fully understand, her potential is not in inner development of personality but in interactions with other characters and the danger and conflict she inevitably brings.

No that is a non-character like the overmind was. They knew that wouldn´t work even back during the original SC, so they used Kerrigan to have a character with a face and an Agenda during the original Zerg campaign.

And de-infesting her actually removes a level of moral ambiguity from her dealings with Mengsk, Raynor and Zeratul, since all it does is certify her as a "good" character in the players' eyes and allows us to get into her head and present us with hundred percent "mundane" and understandable human emotions rather than presenting an inevitably disappointing look into the mind of Kerrigan the Queen of Blades.

"moral ambiguity" worked back in BW when she could legimitately claim to be free of the Overminds control. Just to use the situation in the sector to eventually backstab EVERYONE.

[Dalamar]

I don´t know how you can both hate him and feel detached from him. Hate is a quite passionate feeling I´d say.

Hmm, I should clarify here. First, hate is too strong a word, I should have said "disliked". You have to be exceptionally drawn into a story, to actually hate or love a character and, for me, that never happened in W3.

Second, I meant detached, not from Arthas, but from the story, the proceedings. I felt like a puppet of sorts, with someone tugging me in a direction I did not like. I'd say the only reason I played that mission, was because of my desire, to finish what I had started, i.e. the campaign.

Having a character you actively dislike, as the protagonist of a story is not a good situation imho.

Id rather say that the SC:BW story wrote her into a corner. She resolves all her personal conflicts as Queen of Blades, there is nothing left for her to do at the end of SC:BW.

That is, to some extent, true. However, personal conflicts is not the only source of character development. We do already know how Kerrigan feels and reacts to all the known characters and races of the Koprulu sector. Throwing in an external threat, the hybrids and whoever is controlling them, is a great way to stir the water and create new possibilities.

In fact, something I had forgotten before, there was a new element in Kerrigan's personality, that surfaced because of the new threat, and which, I feel, should have been explored a lot more. You can see it, when she fights Zeratul in the caverns. She is fatalistic.... Kerrigan has been a lot of things in BW, insecure, vindictive, power-hungry, treacherous, but she is also a fighter. One that doesn't give up, no matter the situation she's in. And now... she says, she's prepared for the end when it comes and tries to persuade Zeratul to give in to his fate now, rather than wait for the slow end. I, for one, thought this was a terribly interesting change in her and I would have loved to have seen it explored to greater depth. I would have wanted to learn, what she found out about the coming threat, these four years, that prompted this reaction and I would have wanted to see, were it would have taken her from here. To oblivion... or to renewed dedication to survive...

Plenty of material for a story I should think.

[unentschieden]

Hmm, I should clarify here. First, hate is too strong a word, I should have said "disliked". You have to be exceptionally drawn into a story, to actually hate or love a character and, for me, that never happened in W3.

Second, I meant detached, not from Arthas, but from the story, the proceedings. I felt like a puppet of sorts, with someone tugging me in a direction I did not like. I'd say the only reason I played that mission, was because of my desire, to finish what I had started, i.e. the campaign.

Well, writing isn´t exactly a science and I can´t tell you to like something.

Having a character you actively dislike, as the protagonist of a story is not a good situation imho.

That is a strange opinion to have considering that you suggest having Kerrigan as Anti-Hero in the next paragraph.

That is, to some extent, true. However, personal conflicts is not the only source of character development. We do already know how Kerrigan feels and reacts to all the known characters and races of the Koprulu sector. Throwing in an external threat, the hybrids and whoever is controlling them, is a great way to stir the water and create new possibilities.

It´s pretty clear how the Queen of Blades would react to such an outside force: Use it as an opportunity to gain power and maneuver herself to attack her allies once they outlive their usefullness. She needs character development first to justify anything else.

In fact, something I had forgotten before, there was a new element in Kerrigan's personality, that surfaced because of the new threat, and which, I feel, should have been explored a lot more. You can see it, when she fights Zeratul in the caverns. She is fatalistic.... Kerrigan has been a lot of things in BW, insecure, vindictive, power-hungry, treacherous, but she is also a fighter. One that doesn't give up, no matter the situation she's in. And now... she says, she's prepared for the end when it comes and tries to persuade Zeratul to give in to his fate now, rather than wait for the slow end. I, for one, thought this was a terribly interesting change in her and I would have loved to have seen it explored to greater depth. I would have wanted to learn, what she found out about the coming threat, these four years, that prompted this reaction and I would have wanted to see, were it would have taken her from here. To oblivion... or to renewed dedication to survive...

Plenty of material for a story I should think.

It´s a minor retcon but that is the innate "awe" the Xel´Naga installed in their creations. The protoss rever them as gods - that didn´t stop them from rebelling at one point. It´s basically the same story for the Zerg and thus Kerrigan. It feels so wrong since that is in conflict with the BW Kerrigan but it´s also the only thing they could have her do. The point is that the Queen of Blades is essentially the Overmind 2.0 not only in function to the Swarm but also as Storyelement in WoL. By "killing" the QoB they not only can do something with Kerrigan but also with the Zerg.

Edit:

Extra Credit actually did an episode on the very point I´ve been arguing:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/vide...es-Bad-Writing

[Eligor]

Id rather say that the SC:BW story wrote her into a corner. She resolves all her personal conflicts as Queen of Blades, there is nothing left for her to do at the end of SC:BW.

No that is a non-character like the overmind was. They knew that wouldn´t work even back during the original SC, so they used Kerrigan to have a character with a face and an Agenda during the original Zerg campaign.

The impact of Kerrigan's character stems from her personal involvement with Raynor and Mengsk. Unlike the Overmind she was loved and betrayed. And both the love and the betrayal affected her strongly enough to influence her even after her rebirth into the Swarm. These echoes of humanity (combined with acts of extreme inhumanity and what could be perceived as shreds of a very remote kind of compassion and honour) are a large part of what makes Kerrigan a compelling character, we're never quite sure of what she will do. She always engages her enemies on a very personal level, knowing their faults perhaps even better than they do but most likely unable to truly appreciate that on a moral level. That mix of amorality, sagacity and latent emotional baggage make Infested Kerrigan a very compelling character. Furthermore, before Blizzard released StarCraft 2 they dropped exciting hints that Kerrigan wants to ultimately remake the Swarm in her own image and raise the Zerg to a nearly human level of sentience. So it's not like they didn't have a grand overarching motive for her. One which, unfortunately isn't likely to be pursued now she's de-infested.

"moral ambiguity" worked back in BW when she could legimitately claim to be free of the Overminds control. Just to use the situation in the sector to eventually backstab EVERYONE.

And it still could work with Raynor and the Protoss having to keep Infested Kerrigan (aka Spacehitler) alive despite their vows and wishes, and even at the risk of their own lives. A truly ironic twist of events. With Kerrigan's de-infestation much of that dramatic tension created by the prophecy is gone.

[Dalamar]

Well, writing isn´t exactly a science and I can´t tell you to like something.

Obviously.

That is a strange opinion to have considering that you suggest having Kerrigan as Anti-Hero in the next paragraph.

I thought of clarifying this better in my original post, but decided against it. In hindsight I should have. Anti-hero is not the same thing as disliked. I actually like Kerrigan's character and there are multiple examples, in literature, of anti-hero protagonists, whom the reader can sympathise with.

It´s pretty clear how the Queen of Blades would react to such an outside force: Use it as an opportunity to gain power and maneuver herself to attack her allies once they outlive their usefullness. She needs character development first to justify anything else.

You assume Kerrigan is inflexible and incapable of learning, adjusting her motives or her tactics. This is your perception of her character, based on what we've seen in BW. There is nothing constraining the writers within these behavioural parameters.

It´s a minor retcon but that is the innate "awe" the Xel´Naga installed in their creations. The protoss rever them as gods - that didn´t stop them from rebelling at one point. It´s basically the same story for the Zerg and thus Kerrigan. It feels so wrong since that is in conflict with the BW Kerrigan but it´s also the only thing they could have her do. The point is that the Queen of Blades is essentially the Overmind 2.0 not only in function to the Swarm but also as Storyelement in WoL. By "killing" the QoB they not only can do something with Kerrigan but also with the Zerg.

Ah, but she's not a creation of the Xel'Naga now, is she? In fact, that is the entire point of the prophesy. Kerrigan is the overmind's creation. I don't understand why you are so eager to dismiss the notion, that Kerrigan's fatalism has no innate root and is instead a new element in her personality development.


Anyway, off to see the escapist video!

[Nicol Bolas]

Can you see that? Really? How would you accomplish that? Kerrigan sets herself up as a ruthless evil bitch and then goes good? Or allies with the good guys but remains evil?

Failure of imagination. Not being an antagonist does not automatically mean that she's a protagonist. And even if she is, that doesn't mean she's part of a great alliance with the other protagonists.

If she'd remained infested than the entire plot of Tychus being freed, Raynor collecting the artifacts and allying with Valerian to invade Char, would have been meaningless because they would have accomplished nothing for their efforts.

Failure of imagination again. All you have to do is make the artifacts kill off most of the Zerg. She's no longer a major power, but she can rebuild.

But how? She was a machine of destruction as the Queen of Blades. Zerg just have the need to destroy everything in it's path, it seems.

Is she? She doesn't have to be. The writers choose her motivation.

4 years is a long time. In that time, she could easily have found something to do that doesn't involve blowing things up. Again, I go back to that concept I stated earlier about Kerrigan having Zerg morality and her own plans and goals.

That is a strange opinion to have considering that you suggest having Kerrigan as Anti-Hero in the next paragraph.

Except that Arthas was a Complete Monster. Kerrigan was closer to The Chessmaster or a Magnificant Bastard.

There's a fundamental difference between an anti-hero and a villain protagonist. The anti-hero does heroic things (saves the world) for non-heroic reasons (revenge, he was in the way, he pissed me off, etc). The villain protagonist doesn't do heroic things at all.

[unentschieden]

The impact of Kerrigan's character stems from her personal involvement with Raynor and Mengsk. Unlike the Overmind she was loved and betrayed. And both the love and the betrayal affected her strongly enough to influence her even after her rebirth into the Swarm. These echoes of humanity (combined with acts of extreme inhumanity and what could be perceived as shreds of a very remote kind of compassion and honour) are a large part of what makes Kerrigan a compelling character, we're never quite sure of what she will do. She always engages her enemies on a very personal level, knowing their faults perhaps even better than they do but most likely unable to truly appreciate that on a moral level. That mix of amorality, sagacity and latent emotional baggage make Infested Kerrigan a very compelling character.

That is true but Broodwars already dealt with that. She spares Raynor because he is kinda the only one that was nice to her and figurativly beats Mengsk into the ground but spares him for some reason (allowing Blizzard to make sequels).
The main problem isn´t that the aproach is explicit bad but that it already happend. If they repeat it they´d need a good reason for Kerrigan to act differently.

Furthermore, before Blizzard released StarCraft 2 they dropped exciting hints that Kerrigan wants to ultimately remake the Swarm in her own image and raise the Zerg to a nearly human level of sentience. So it's not like they didn't have a grand overarching motive for her. One which, unfortunately isn't likely to be pursued now she's de-infested.

Blizzard aproach to the game is WAY to conservative for that. It´s not the de-infestation that stops a reimagining of the Zerg, it´s the unwillingness of Blizzard to make a bold step like WC2 -> WC3 was. Not that this is explicit bad.

And it still could work with Raynor and the Protoss having to keep Infested Kerrigan (aka Spacehitler) alive despite their vows and wishes, and even at the risk of their own lives. A truly ironic twist of events. With Kerrigan's de-infestation much of that dramatic tension created by the prophecy is gone.

Again, thats not an ironic twist that is repeating history.

You assume Kerrigan is inflexible and incapable of learning, adjusting her motives or her tactics. This is your perception of her character, based on what we've seen in BW. There is nothing constraining the writers within these behavioural parameters.

No, I expect her to have a consistent character. She can act differently but not "because". De-infestation is a rather blunt method of character development but it works.

Ah, but she's not a creation of the Xel'Naga now, is she? In fact, that is the entire point of the prophesy. Kerrigan is the overmind's creation. I don't understand why you are so eager to dismiss the notion, that Kerrigan's fatalism has no innate root and is instead a new element in her personality development.

Eh, ok I guess I was filling plotholes there. Thing is that Kerrigans fatalismus makes no sense if she is free of the Xel´Naga indoctrination and conflicts with her character from Broodwars.

Failure of imagination. Not being an antagonist does not automatically mean that she's a protagonist. And even if she is, that doesn't mean she's part of a great alliance with the other protagonists.

Well we want Kerrigan as either protagonist or antagonist since she is a major character. She is (currently) the ONLY character on the Zerg faction.
And if she is removed from the other main characters there isn´t much of a story involving her.

[Nicol Bolas]

She spares Raynor because he is kinda the only one that was nice to her

She didn't spare Raynor at all; she betrayed Raynor. Or did you somehow miss her murder of Fenix? The fact that her betrayal didn't actually involve her killing Raynor does not mean that she was in any way nice or kind to him.

If they repeat it they´d need a good reason for Kerrigan to act differently.

Again: 4 years. Furthermore, they'd have all of WoL to explain how she's changed.

Well we want Kerrigan as either protagonist or antagonist since she is a major character.

Just because you can only think in the limited dichotomy of protagonist or antagonist doesn't mean that these are the only two possibilities for a main character.