Are the races balanced?

[AegisKHAOS]

collossus is op, roach is op, marauder is op, void rays is op, probe is op, marine is op, drone is op, zerglings is op, scvs are op.

AWESOME!

*builds nothing but workers*

[dejai]

Ok lets stop going "OP" crazy here. Only maps can be "OP" in my opinion at this stage of the game. KR is just not zerg favored it is just harder to play that map as zerg and I am sure game play statistics on that map will justify that opinion. However take a map like meta and that is a much more balanced map between the three races, another map just as LT some would argue is terran favored due to the narrow chokes and exploitable ledges. Personally I don't believe any OP issues cannot be solved with map modifications.

The game is still evolving and not all counters have come fully to fruition yet. Sure some things may actually be game bugs (like VR phasing who knows) but in general I feel you cannot call a build OP until you see that race getting constantly hammered at top tier levels.

M&M&M gets raped by banelings quite hard.
High temps are not op the storm is even less effective than in BW if you think you can just run a bunch of marines into high temps you are doing it wrong.
Infestors are a key unit to zerg granted the infested terran may need modification, infestors are really important for zerg.

So don't start yelling OP at any chance you get because you are missing a lot of the subtle mechanics of the game and how play styles effect each race.

[protoswarrior]

Ok lets stop going "OP" crazy here. Only maps can be "OP" in my opinion at this stage of the game. KR is just not zerg favored it is just harder to play that map as zerg and I am sure game play statistics on that map will justify that opinion. However take a map like meta and that is a much more balanced map between the three races, another map just as LT some would argue is terran favored due to the narrow chokes and exploitable ledges. Personally I don't believe any OP issues cannot be solved with map modifications.

The game is still evolving and not all counters have come fully to fruition yet. Sure some things may actually be game bugs (like VR phasing who knows) but in general I feel you cannot call a build OP until you see that race getting constantly hammered at top tier levels.

M&M&M gets raped by banelings quite hard.
High temps are not op the storm is even less effective than in BW if you think you can just run a bunch of marines into high temps you are doing it wrong.
Infestors are a key unit to zerg granted the infested terran may need modification, infestors are really important for zerg.

So don't start yelling OP at any chance you get because you are missing a lot of the subtle mechanics of the game and how play styles effect each race.

Dejai - I think you're too OP for this forum

We need to nerf you!

[Mrjiggles]

And you, Mrjiggles, are underwhelming with your ignorance. Learn the right counters before posting this.

Thank you for kindly responding to my post, which is something that probably doesnt surprise me from seeing your previous posts as you seem to like to flame. You could've politely corrected me or asked me to explain just like
Jdawsman who very kindly asked me to explain.

Now im sorry about not explaining i was short on time but the reason i think HTare overpowered is because you can warp them in with a warpprism, then if you have the amulet you can instantly sidestorm and if you use 2 Ht there is almost a 100% chance of destroying all the enemy scvs, probes, and/or drones. Especially hard to spot them if you have a lot of expansions and a lot is happening at a time.

Infestors can use infestected terrans, which do a decent amount of damage, can hit air, and spawn realtively quickly and last 50 units of time. So even if they do minimal damage you dont lose any real units. Also forces you to get detection, and can keep you from mining for a while/large probability to destory base or other equipment. Also infestor can use fungal growth and neuro parasite underground.

a marine marauder push off a 4-3 rax especially against protots which leads you to only be able to defend yourself properly with 1 bild(according to Husky) and if they manage to get in your base you might as well GG, also note that it almost purely relies on your speed with a sentry and if you forget or if they quickly stem and climb up you are dead no matter what, and its especially harder wher you play in a ramp that requires 2 force fields.

[Aznargo]

You didn't need to make your first post right away; the thread isn't going to disappear =/. You could've saved yourself from looking extremely ignorant while listing off random units saying they're "op" without any sort of explanation.

Anyway, I think you've a decent point about the HT.

The infestor, on the other hand, is not op. I mean, yes, if you DON'T get detection you're pretty much screwed in and out. However, if you're a Protoss player, you're going to get an observer anyway. And you're probably going to get more than one . As for Terran, they have Ravens, Scan, and Missle Turrets. That's two more types of detection more than the other two races. Imo, it's worth sacrificing a MULE to scan sweep the enemy base. Who knows, maybe you'll catch a warp prism just coming out of robo.

As for the Marine+Marauder+Medvac push, it is in fact a strong strategy for Terran to use against Protoss. Very hard for a weak Protoss player to counter, imo. But all you need are sentries to block off your ramp while you get immortals and collosi. I'm positive it's harder to execute than to simply say, "Oh, this is all you need to do", though.

Now, if they have Medivacs then they can do a drop, and that's why Toss players NEED observers. One observer to follow the medivac, the other to stay in the Terran's base. For all you know, the guy could be getting a Thorship.

Are you saying all these units are "op" because you don't use your scan sweep, or don't scout, or don't use your observers/overlords/overseers? Just curious, not trying to be an ass or anything.

[Mrjiggles]

You didn't need to make your first post right away; the thread isn't going to disappear =/. You could've saved yourself from looking extremely ignorant while listing off random units saying they're "op" without any sort of explanation.

Anyway, I think you've a decent point about the HT.

The infestor, on the other hand, is not op. I mean, yes, if you DON'T get detection you're pretty much screwed in and out. However, if you're a Protoss player, you're going to get an observer anyway. And you're probably going to get more than one . As for Terran, they have Ravens, Scan, and Missle Turrets. That's two more types of detection more than the other two races. Imo, it's worth sacrificing a MULE to scan sweep the enemy base. Who knows, maybe you'll catch a warp prism just coming out of robo.

As for the Marine+Marauder+Medvac push, it is in fact a strong strategy for Terran to use against Protoss. Very hard for a weak Protoss player to counter, imo. But all you need are sentries to block off your ramp while you get immortals and collosi. I'm positive it's harder to execute than to simply say, "Oh, this is all you need to do", though.

Now, if they have Medivacs then they can do a drop, and that's why Toss players NEED observers. One observer to follow the medivac, the other to stay in the Terran's base. For all you know, the guy could be getting a Thorship.

Are you saying all these units are "op" because you don't use your scan sweep, or don't scout, or don't use your observers/overlords/overseers? Just curious, not trying to be an ass or anything.

No just saying because i've seen many high level replays in which people just get dominated by these types of builds.

[userstupidname]

Loved how everyone went

AHH

marine bio ball OP OP

went on with it and dealt with it

and now terrans are discovering mech

AHH MECH OP OP!!!!


And guys be weary of ''high level games''

Even mediocre players can get into diamonds

[dejai]

Diamond represents around the top 10% of ladder players getting up that ladder is quite another thing.

Four barracks timing pushes are not over powered if they were the pro gamers would have been using them non stop and every pro gamer would be terran. So that is obviously not the case. Since you believe high temps and infestors to be op then all 3 races have over powered classes in your opinion wouldn't that cancel out at least to some extent? I think you are putting yourself in some odd situations like:

(A) he has a massive bio army and I have nothing (yes it will be GG I would suggest a more aggressive game plan).

(B) High temps can take out my scv line (How did they get there in the first place?)

(C) Infestors are over powered (It may need some work yet but what else does zerg have?)

So situationally you are actually worse off which does not make the unit over powered it probably means what build you are using is not strong enough in that situation. For example if you go 1 base roach as zerg and you get owned by immortals the immortal is not overpowered the opponent has simply reacted to your strategy in a way that is optimal from his viewpoint.

You have to be very aware what your opponent is doing for example if you see 4 barracks you know what is coming and you may decide to get stalkers and sentries and simply force field your ramp to stop them getting to you which is addressed in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LeLlzeecUsc .

[protoswarrior]

Thank you for kindly responding to my post, which is something that probably doesnt surprise me from seeing your previous posts as you seem to like to flame. You could've politely corrected me or asked me to explain just like
Jdawsman who very kindly asked me to explain.

Congrats to Jdawsman. Me, flame? LOL ! What are you smoking?

As was said by Aznargo, you should think before you post a thread. The thread's original post is of no value whatsoever without an explanation. I called you on it, and apparently struck a sensitive chord.

Also, w.r.t my "history of flaming", it might just be that I am more forthcoming with my opinions and may be perceived as "flame" whereas I am merely pointing out the obvious truths. People don't like the truth; I don't think you're any different, no offense intended.

Now im sorry about not explaining i was short on time but the reason i think HTare overpowered is because you can warp them in with a warpprism, then if you have the amulet you can instantly sidestorm and if you use 2 Ht there is almost a 100% chance of destroying all the enemy scvs, probes, and/or drones. Especially hard to spot them if you have a lot of expansions and a lot is happening at a time.

Ok.

If Protoss have Warp Prisms and HTs with insta- psi-storms, then Terrans have Medvacs with 4 Marauder drops, or just MMM drops.

If Protoss have HT/prism, then Zerg have Nydus worm and much more massive armies.

If Protoss have HT/prism, then Protoss has HT/Prism or stalkers with blink.


And the overall solution to that tactic is just plain good ol' scoutin'. Calling the tactic and unit OP, is stupid, I'm sorry to say since the same thing exists in BW. The dynamic of the metagame is different in BW than in SC2, but it is the same thing essentially - the result and solution is the same. You lose all your workers to storm, and you just have to have a spotter and a siege-tank or 2.

Prism are more fragile than shuttles, and if spotted for, tanks instantly kill warping-in HTs before ANY storm can go off, and you can't really do storm drops against a turreted Terran as you could in BW... And vikings can snipe prisms sooo easily with their ridiculous 9 range.


The tactic and unit class is balanced. You may not have the experience to deal with it or you haven't learnt it yet. Good luck with that.

Infestors can use infested terrans, which do a decent amount of damage, can hit air, and spawn relatively quickly and last 50 units of time. So even if they do minimal damage you don't lose any real units. Also forces you to get detection, and can keep you from mining for a while/large probability to destroy base or other equipment. Also infestor can use fungal growth and neural parasite underground.

Ok, my apologies for correcting your blatant grammar mistakes that really bother me.

On to your point:

Infestors are still WIP as far as I am concerned. The fact that Infested Terrans and NP are cast from underground is a bug I think. However, I don't feel it to be OP.

One thing I learned in the Beta is that EVERYONE takes detection for granted. In BW, EVERYONE gets detection. Why the discrepancy you ask? That's because there are 11 years worth of gaming experience to show that you NEED early detection in BW. In SC2, a lot of people are new to the game, so detection is far from their minds.

Complaining that you NEED detection to counter the tactic is weak. You NEED detection ANYWAYS, that's how I see it. If you don't spare 50 energy for an emergency scan and use all your OC energy on MULEs, whose fault is it? The aggressor? No. Your own. You have to plan ahead and keep 50 energy per OC, or at least on one OC to scan for cloaked / inaccessible high ground units. Protoss players need a robo in midgame no matter the tech path they choose. Zerg NEED an overseer MORE than the other two races just because of it's really good scouting abilities and mobile detection.

Now, what you're really saying is "having to GET detection is BS", which imho is BS. You need to get detection as part of your strategy. If it doesn't figure in your plans, you're taking a risk and should accept the consequences, not complain about it.

Again, ^ perceive the above as a flame, it doesn't really matter. "Get the message" is what is more important.

a marine marauder push off a 4-3 rax especially against protots which leads you to only be able to defend yourself properly with 1 bild(according to Husky) and if they manage to get in your base you might as well GG, also note that it almost purely relies on your speed with a sentry and if you forget or if they quickly stem and climb up you are dead no matter what, and its especially harder wher you play in a ramp that requires 2 force fields.

Correct your own mistakes here, man...

On to your point:
3 rax marauder push into 4 rax pressure with follow up Ghost Tech or fast expo is the most NORMAL thing you encounter in Gold and Platinum games. The counter is simple: Good macro with enough Sentry/zealot/supporting stalker from 3-Warpgates and 1 Robo-Immortal, or 1 stargate-Phoenix.

The problem I was having with this build in my Silver days was that I couldn't build enough Zealots and sentries in time. I improved my macro and I actually now welcome this kind of push because this opens up my tech path to either get fast charge and transition into HT/storm from 2 base and basically hoard resource points with good positioning. If he pushes out he gets out-stormed to death. He HAS to get mech or bio-mech to push out (ie siege tanks). I can just use a large army of chargelots and HTs to counter push position, or use them as a staging mix to get a higher / different tech like mass warpgate > 2 stargate Phoenix, or mass WG into mass Colossi from 3-4 robo (KawaiiRice - style).

Marauders are the LEAST of your problems in TvP, I'll tell you that.
Husky is a good player, but the build he is countering is a very specific T build which is as hard for the T to follow up on as it is for Protoss to defend/follow-up/counter-attack. If T fucks up his attack, he has a high probability of losing the game right there if the Protoss counters with a drop or Void rays, or follows up tech with fast Colossi like Husky did.

The 1 crucial FF is important in his case since the push was coming when he decided to go 3 gate robo. If you 4 gate, you can actually be more aggressive (by cutting a few probes) and catch his push midway and FF his forces in half, and pwn them with your slow zealots. The two builds for T and P (3 rax marauder / 4 Gate push) are almost all-in, or just all-in because if one fails, the other wins. The way to not be all in is to use FF well at your ramp till your tech appears. That is standard Protoss play in SC2 anyways.

You'll need to learn it.



Again, I'll reiterate dejai's point: there are no OP units in SC2, only OP maps. As maps get more balanced, you will start to see it more clearly, but on maps like Metalopolis and Lost Temple (which are already well-balanced), you clearly see that whoever has a tactical advantage can capitalize and win, unless the correct counter is used, or the player is just prepared. This is exactly like in BW today.

And remember, SC2 got released 2 days ago; SC1 was released in 1998! Expect a lot more balance changes as we approach the next instalment.


Also, try watching the videos made by day9 to learn how to play the basic game as you should, with all the necessary basic concepts nailed. Not understanding the full scope of the game and throwing such criticism does not make you look good. You should embrace the problems you're getting and fighting your way to find solutions.

Complaining in my book always equates to complacency. People complain because they don't WANT to fight, as complaining is easier. Fight against the problem, and your complaint will disappear on its own. Again, take this as a flame post and even report me if you wish, I don't really care.

I just wanted to point out to you : I don't really follow your posts to find trends, and thus don't know you to pass judgment... Accusing me of flaming just because you got called on your blatant lack of understanding is ridiculous and had to be addressed this once. I don't usually flame, for the record, and if I did, it would be for a very good reason.

[whitefire]

I think its pretty well balanced however there are a few tweaks that I think should be made. Emp. I think it comes out too soon and it cripples way to many Toss units. I think it should have to be researched like concussive shells. It shouldnt be a freebe. Another think I think is off is the fact that ghosts and infestors have three spells whereas HTs only have two. granted that they can become Archons it is still a sacrificial ability.

Roaches are in limbo. too strong to be one food but too weak to be two food. Roaches are easy to counter but can be massed produced ridiculously at one food. Im not sure what needs to be done with the roach but something needs to be done to make the unit viable outside of defending zealot attacks.

Mother ship is underwhelming. its a massive target that has aggro because of the cloaking field and its slow so its easy to pick off. It either needs more bang for its buck or to be replaced with an updated arbiter because as it stands right now it dose more harm to the protoss than good.

Feel free to agree or dissagree with me. Tactics are still being developed so some of these might be non issues in the future.