PvZ - Archons vs Ultras! Your thoughts!

[protoswarrior]

http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5767

In that link, I have "proof" that Archons HAVE a purpose and that's to destroy Ultralisks in lategame I wanted to know your thoughts about this!

Even though I made critical mistakes in this game, what do you think can be done to better streamline getting archons in the lategame stages?

[0mar]

why not just get immortals. They own ultras even harder and cost less resources.

[Jdawsman]

why not just get immortals. They own ultras even harder and cost less resources.

It's situational, if the zerg was using hydras before he went to ultras then HT is a very viable option and perhaps someone would opt for that. After seeing that he transitioned to ultras/hydras archons would seem like the most logical choice.

[protoswarrior]

And Archons DESTROY any roaches that are used with hydras and Ultras. Usually when dealing with mass hydras with templar, temps with no energy are morphed into archons. BUT, once in late-game, I can make so many more temps and zealots, and can purely focus on those 2 units for lategame if I scout an Ultra-den. In my game, I made a bunch of temps and kept morphing into archons. With their splash and psi-storm, combined, Ultras fall sooo quickly, not to mention that the supporting hydras have absolutely no chance!!

The Immortals do make sense as a counter since Immortals do massive bonus damage to armored and only take 10 damage per Ultra hit. The only problem is if you went temp tech, you'd only have 1 robo max. 1 robo immortals will be impossible to keep up with ultra production.

Archons are much more of an obvious choice (esp now that I have found how MERCIFULLY good they are against mass Ultras!). And Archons have 350 shields! That's a LOT of tanking damage they can take while chargelots and storm rip through everything else.

[protoswarrior]

Sorry for double post.

On top of the tanking damage, fully upped Archons do 47 damage per hit to Bio. That's a lot of damage to dish out to 5 armor ultralisk (which counts as 6 armor since base ultra armor is 1). Fully upped archons are scary for an ultralisk force.

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Also, I wanted to mention this:

In the King of the Beta tournament, Huk's game vs Idra, he could've used the alternative route of templar tech soo easily, if he hadn't gone for the robo bay. I know he didnt get charge or extended thermal lances upgrades, and that was his major mistake. But, think about it. Had he gone for a Templar Archives (since he already had a Twilight Council), he already had the infrastructure to get high templars.

Idra still only had a hydra heavy army which he couldn't yet attack with. Had Huk not gone for colossi and later Immortals, he'd have had a lot more to go for an archon/HT heavy army with chargelots as support, which may have allowed him more time and flexibility to expo to his gold unmolested. The game might have looked a lot different, had Huk chosen temps.

Again, I think Archons are an underdog I am determined to exploit in the full game's PvZ matchup. I will post more replays to demonstrate this more thoroughly later, before July 30th, and after August 30th

[MulletBen]

Meh, for 100/300 (or 250/250 (or 175/275)) it still takes 2 Archons to take down a 300/200 Ultra. Even though un-upgraded Archons might be doing slightly more damage to an Ultralisk than the Ultra does to it (courtesy of it not being light or armored), the ultra still has 140 more life than it, and costs at the very least 50 less gas.

I will grant that for cost, Archons will beat Ultras, but by a very slight margin.

Funnily enough, Archons are listed as weak against Ultralisks (though apparently thors are good against stalkers *shrugs*).

[Noctis]

Blizzard will be nerfing this, because it know "intereferes" with Immortal

[protoswarrior]

No, it doesn't. Protoss always have a choice in tech tree to make, unlike Terran or Zerg. You EITHER get Templar or Robo, just like in BW for ground armies. There is also the Stargate tech, but that is a much more specialized strategy that still needs a ground techswitch to survive mid-game...

You can never get both techs at the same time for ground unit production. What I had found weak in the beginning of the beta was that Temp tech had no transition for lategame, since Archons were weaker with the smaller AoE splash (if you remember) and long morphing time.

You HAD to switch techs to be able to be viable in lategame PvZ. So you HAD to get Colossi to be able to play a lategame, or at least get a bunch of Void Rays, which is waaay out of the way of templar tech. That was why you saw a lot of late game Colossi and builds around that unit. The thing with colossi is that they're not that mobile on open maps. Their damage is excellent, but it was the one and only option.

NOW, with this newly discovered use for archons, I think they ARE a viable lategame unit. If you go Immortals in PvZ they're extremely vulnerable to hydras and air. Archons have the benefit of being able to dish BONUS damage to both air and ground units, and did I mention they can hit air? So, no, Archons DEFINITELY do not interfere with the role of Immortals which is more of tier 1.5 / 2 unit that is meant to counter roaches and to snipe buildings.

They could potentially be used to counter small numbers of Ultras, but Ultras and ling/hydra are the bane of any zealot-heavy/Immortal force. I once did play against a zerg on Kulas Ravine where I had a bunch of Immortals/sentries/charge-zealots and a couple of colossi. This is of course before the nerf to the ultras and when FF's were able to block ultras. The fact that Ultras with 5/3 upgrades are tougher than anything on the ground makes for them able to outlast forcefields and come up to destroy your Immortal-heavy army. I had scouted ultra-den and was like, ok: Immortals do 50 damage to ultras unupped, & I was at +3 attack. So, I figured that the ultras would die, but no. I ended up losing the game to mass ultralisk.

Also, if you consider the context of the latest patch:

You go Immortals from 3-4 robos after getting a few colossi when you see the ultra-den, and support it with stalker/charge-zealots since FF's are useless. This means that the ultras will be able to head up to your immortals rightaway and hydras from behind are going to do a ton of damage, not to mention any flanking force of tier 2 roach/lings. All/Any gate units in the way of Immortals will get splashed to death and any Ultras that do get a head butt on the Immortals do extra damage after shields go down (which is VERY quick). That head butt from 1 ultra does 90 damage!! That will just killa bunch of Immortals quickjer than they can kill any significant number of ultras, esp with hydra support.

Also, rebuilding Immortals takes at least 2 CB's to be able to be in time for a second engagement, by which time, he will have almost 2x the amount of ultras.

In contrast, consider this: Templar Archives is a direct continuation in the build from Core > Council. So you will already have zealots with charge, and forge upps. Also, once you get temp tech you can easily deal with any hydra/roach. To deal with any muta zergs, getting cannons and a temp or two (when needed) at every expo will nullify any muta harass, and the follow up is the most natural thing in the world.

You see him tech to Hive and get ultra den, you can just make more zealot/templar and morph a bunch of the temps into archons. Takes only 12 s (in-game time), which is in-real-time MUCH faster.

MulletBen, when you consider that the archon does so much more damage and takes a lot less time to make than an Ultra, and as you mentioned yourself, it takes a lot less damage since it is a fully Psionic unit. The 350 shields makes this thing a beefy unit than can tank a lot of ultra damage and it in itself can DEAL a lot more damage per second.

Also, I never even go by the chart that blizzard gives. I discovered a long time ago that they were VERY inaccurate. Better to find the information on unit counters here on the forums.

WRT your argument that it takes 2 archons to kill 1 ultra. That is EXACTLY how it was in BW. It took 2 fully archons upped 3-3-3 to kill a 5/3 Ultra. Also, there is one thing you're not considering here is that in a battle, you're using storms on and around ultras situationally where the most hydras, lings or roaches are found. The extra damage from storm allows for some of your zealots to clean up the ultras with residual life, while the majority are fighting off hydras and roaches and lings with storms decimating from behind.

I am so amazed by how good archons make a lategame PvZ ground composition. I'm also surprised no one has ever done this before.

[Taerix]

I don't think Archons are meant to be massed against your opponent's force. They do however make a great support unit that will do a ton of damage to any unit that is small and stacks close together, especially Zerg since they're all bio.

[protoswarrior]

I agree Taerix, they do make a great support unit. I never said it wasn't, but in this particular scenario where Ultras are the focus of a zerg's lategame, I discovered that Archons CAN BE much more than is the belief of most players.

Btw, did you get a chance to watch the replay I posted? I admit I'm not the most awesome player in the world, but I feel there is dormant potential with going Archons in PvZ, starting with countering fully upgraded Ultralisks.