Frustrated with Design Gimmicks

[Triceron]

In any case, it is what it is. I do have a problem with arbitrarily treating abilities different from attacks. Giving Marines an "ability" that says "Shoot Gun" that deals 20 damage to Immortals is bad game design, and I think the difference is too small to matter.

This is what I think of Snipe and Thor Barrage, personally. Glorified attacks made into spells for little reason other than being more APM sinks. They have their use (esp snipe vs baneling, vs high templar) but I sorta feel like as a spell it should be more than just long range instant damage vs bio. It's mini yamato. I feel like it could be a more interesting mechanic beyond that.

[pure.Wasted]

...why? Abilities are different from attacks. They were in SC1 too.

You said "good thing" that the Marine doesn't have an ability called "Shoot Gun." Well, what's the difference between that and the Thor's Strike Cannons?

Look at it this way: Marine attacks regularly, armor penalty applies. Marine attacks with Stims (ability!), armor penalty applies. Siege Tank attacks regularly, penalty applies. Siege Tank in Siege Mode (new state gained through ability!), penalty applies. Thor attacks regularly, penalty applies. Thor attacks with Cannons (could be said to enter a new state through ability), penalty DOES NOT APPLY.

The only actual reason is that Blizz didn't make a copy of the Thor unit called "Strike Cannon Mode" which has identical stats and deals damage to a single target for its entire duration. If they had (following the Tank's example), there would have been absolutely zero difference as far as we could tell, except that the penalty would have existed.

How is this not inconsistent, thoughtless game design? I'm not saying "thoughtless" to insult Blizz, it's a fairly minor point. But it IS a point that no thought went into.

While some are no doubt due to balance, a number of these 'gimmicks' are to add a greater sense of logic to the abilities. For instance, Force Fields stop at ground level. Therefore, a burrowed unit can of course dig underneath it.

This makes perfect sense...

Which is why I'm upset that this CHANGED in the most recent patch. Now burrowed units CANNOT dig underneath Force Fields, although they could previously.

I'm 100% for them being able to do so. Not only does it make sense, it's a crazy fun and inventive "counter" to FF happy Protoss without singling out burrowed units "randomly" while leaving flying units undeterred.

Really? I mean, specifically the newfound mechanic of "works on everything x this one unit"

I guess Archer was responding to my "ability/attack segregation" complaint, which is threatening to derail this thread. I don't know if I should just continue venting on that topic, or take it elsewhere so this can remain purely about "X Y but not Z."

[GRUNT]

You forgot to mention that Marauders don't slow massive units .

But seriously, while I agree that there's more and more 'clutter' with what you need to remember for the units' abilities, I don't think it's at a really horrible point.

The thing to remember is that the Ultralisk's 'Frenzied' passive is now, well, part of what it is. The Immortal's passive is now second-nature to us, but I remember some people didn't quite understand it when it was first explained. Even now, you need to take the unit's damage and number of attacks into account when facing Immortals. Like I said, we all know this stuff now, but the Ultralisk's passive is new.

Also, I think Brood War also had some unintuitive mechanics here and there. Most notably for me - Dark Swarm . If I recall, the tooltip description was quite vague, and didn't cover the fact that ranged splash damage goes through it.

At least in SC2, the all the spells behave the way the tooltip describes.

As for Roach and burrow, while I'm disappointed that it's a bit of a nerf to Roaches, I'm also not too concerned about 'flavour'. After all, Roaches can't burrow-move under Pylons or a Barracks. In some ways, burrowing under forcefield would be what's out-of-place. It's easier to remember that burrowed Roaches have all the movement restrictions of Roaches above ground.

[newcomplex]

You said "good thing" that the Marine doesn't have an ability called "Shoot Gun." Well, what's the difference between that and the Thor's Strike Cannons?

You misunderstand me Purewasted. The Thors cannon is terrible, I'm just being nitpicky and specifically disagreeing with your "spells should be attacks" thing concerning immortals and Point Defense Drone.

This makes perfect sense...

Which is why I'm upset that this CHANGED in the most recent patch. Now burrowed units CANNOT dig underneath Force Fields, although they could previously.

Well this is weird too. Burrowed units are classified identically with normal units, and before, a specific exception was made to allow roaches and infestors underneath.

You forgot to mention that Marauders don't slow massive units

But this is moreso a mechanic then anything else, while everything else on his list (most of them) are incongruous with the mechanics that should be governing them.

[pure.Wasted]

You forgot to mention that Marauders don't slow massive units .

I actually didn't mention it intentionally. There's nothing wrong with units having different traits, and "Massive units" having different traits from others is completely normal. Just like some units can fly. That's not bad, it's not inconsistent, it's just different.

What's inconsistent is if we have 5 massive units and then ONE of them, for NO sensible reason, CAN be slowed by Marauders. That would be a problem, and that's the sort of things I'm addressing with the OP.

The thing to remember is that the Ultralisk's 'Frenzied' passive is now, well, part of what it is.

So on this note, I have absolutely nothing against the Ultralisk's identity here being a battering ram. Let's say, for instance, it gains a passive ability that says, "This unit cannot be slowed or stopped by any effects." Great! OK! That's just like what the Immortal does with its shields.

But why the mind control? The Immortal doesn't get a Mind Control clause in its contract. There's an immediately sensible reason for why the gigantic Ultralisk is not affected by the puny Marauders' slowing effects. There's no immediately sensible reason why the Ultralisk's mind cannot be tampered with.

As a rule I think that a mechanic/trait works much better if it is a trait of that UNIT, and not a "counter-trait" of whatever should be affecting that unit. Colossus being hit by AtA attacks because it is Tall is fine. Fungal Growth (fake example) working on everything BUT Thors, for no reason other than that's what it reads on the tooltip, is NOT fine.

Well this is weird too. Burrowed units are classified identically with normal units, and before, a specific exception was made to allow roaches and infestors underneath.

I will grant that the case with Burrowed units isn't quite as clear cut as in my other examples. Having said that, I think sufficient difference exists that I'm at least not being a hypocrite when I defend it.

Burrowed units, to my mind, are like Massive units. Do we need burrowed units to have their own characteristics, other than ~Cloak? Not really, just like Massive units didn't NEED to be different. But if it benefits the game, I don't see it as a bad thing.

As long as all Burrow-move capable units Burrow-move identically, there's no problem. Once Roaches start being able to pass Force Fields while Infestors can't, THEN we've got a X, Y, but not Z violation.

These kind of things were all over SCBW.

On re-reading the quote you supplied (bold or something would have really helped!), I get the idea you're talking about Siege Tanks and Reavers specifically, which are both "ranged" units that can still deal damage to Dark Swarm-protected Zerg.

Thing is, it's pretty easy to resolve. The mechanic isn't prevent all ranged damage, it's prevent all non-AoE ranged damage. So Tanks, Reavers, Lurkers all get a pass. Add to the fact that it "makes sense" -- shooting a bullet into a fog vs. shooting a nuke, not exactly the same thing.

There's no such way to resolve "Neural Parasite doesn't work on Ultralisks." There's absolutely nothing that is unique to Ultralisks that is not shared by other units, at the VERY least other Massive units.

[mikill]

Dude don't hate, learn to love the beta. It is just a game and not a finishied one, things can change and stuff happens. I may not agree with you in some stuff but I am questioning some of the design mechanics though..

[hyde]

As the game nears release, we've seen an influx of more and more gimmick design decisions taking over the game. SC has always been lauded for its "simplistic" approach to designing units and abilities -- things do what you expect them to do, no more, no less. No exceptions.

And now we're getting those exceptions, in their anti-common sense... glory?

Infestor's Neural Parasite works on all ground targets... except Ultralisks.

Thor's stun works on all ground targets... except Ultralisks.

Infestor can't cast spells while Burrowed... except Infested Terrans.

Force Fields only impede ground movement... except Burrowed Roaches and Infestors. (why not stop air units from flying overhead, while we're at it?)

Hallucinated units can do anything (short of dealing damage or using abilities) their "real" counterparts can do... except breaking Force Fields. (if they have no 'substance' to break through something, then enemy units should be able to walk through hallucinations -- obviously they cannot)

Immortals drop all damage over 10 to 10... except from Nukes and Yamato Cannons.

Point Defense Drone blocks ranged attacks with visible projectiles... except the Brood Lord's. Oh, and doesn't stop ranged ABILITIES with visible projectiles, although that makes no sense either (Yamato Cannon different from laser how? EMP shot different from bullet how?)

There's absolutely nothing wrong with units doing their own thing. If every unit was just a different model attached to different numbers of stats, the game would get boring fast. But just because design is creative doesn't mean it gets a pass for being inelegant. The Void Ray functions completely differently from any other unit in the game... but it does so consistently. It doesn't act one way toward Marines and another toward Ghosts.

Some of these have easy solutions. An Immortal getting hit by Nukes is such a rare occurrence that whether the Nuke kills it or not is a very insignificant balance detail -- here, the principle of the matter easily trumps "game balance." In other cases, ie the Ultralisk being stopped dead in its tracks by Thor fire, is obviously (in Blizz's eyes) a problem. I'd say scrapping the ability (which was only used vs. Ultras and Immortals TO BEGIN WITH) would be the way to go, since it creates more problems than it solves.

This isn't the biggest issue with SC2 gameplay... but looking over the most recent patch notes (the FULL version), I was reminded how much this inelegant design bugs the hell outta me. [/vent]

This just in... Banshees in WC3 cannot mind control heroes.

You're nitpicking over small details which can be explained easily by
1) Ret Con Lore
2) Balance
3) Simplicity

i.e. The force field example, the roach/infestor issue is just a wide blanketing thing...All ground units. It was obviously made as a design choice to offer protoss players some tactical ability on ramps.

The ultralisk issue is a bit gimmicky, but they are trying to balance a unit and it just sucked ass last game.

Your argument that nukes are purchased and are therefore units is a horrible and unsound argument. I stopped reading when I saw that. Yes..immortal shields do not work against kiloton payload nuclear warheads or a ball of radiological death and energy....Go figure?
Jesus if you want consistency, go back to WarCraft 1. Look obviously some of the things are not consistent and that's poor design from the get go, but then we'd be left with a blanket of vanilla units.
Like others have said, Marauders don't slow massive units. Vikings can shoot at Collussi in Flight mode. The Sun will rise up tommorow, except in Japan and that part of the hemisphere.

[MulletBen]

I'll agree with you on half of this.

First of all, forcefields. Burrowed units couldn't move under buildings, and now they can't move under forcefields. As mentioned before, same restrictions as ground units. If you want to argue practicality, you might want to argue the Supply Depot case first. :P

As for Ultras, it makes more sense if you consider it an effect of the Ultra, rather than the effect of a spell. Is there any way to justify that X ability works on all Y units, except Z? Yes, when Z has Q ability that stops all X-type abilities from working on it.
Of course, that's probably opening up a whole new can of worms, since Ultras, I believe, can still be stopped by fungal growth, so I reluctantly have to agree with you, since there seems to be little consistency as to what exactly constitutes a X-type ability.

As per Immortals and PDD, I have no problems separating 'attack' from 'ability'.
...though I have no idea why the Broodlord's attack isn't considered a projectile.

Now, for Infested Terran, I am going to fully and whole-heartedly disagree with you. Just like Ultras (though that is very fuzzy and not well defined), you have to consider it from the opposite angle. Rather than "Infestors can only cast Infested Terran while burrowed," think of it "Infested Terran can be cast while burrowed." What's the difference? Nothing but the language. It is the same result. Just like in the Dark Swarm example, you could list the units that are not effected, or you could point out what sets them apart. It is a little fuzzier, since you don't have a group of units to point out what is being set apart. But think of it, not as an exception by the Infestor, but as a function of the ability. If you look at it from the opposite angle, it becomes a little clearer.

Oh, and Thor's cannons suck.

[ArcherofAiur]

This reminds me allot of how Magic the Gathering cards are put together.

[hyde]

This reminds me allot of how Magic the Gathering cards are put together.

Shit I used to play that stuff in the day...sold my entire collection after awhile.
Yeah but official MTG League rules state what card sets can actually be used in tournaments....so "balancing" the game on an official level is easy...

Make a new collection and say Collection X,Z,Y and so and so from predate are invalid. I know the general are always in but they don't have anything special.