Hybrids and insfestations

[Gradius]

Really? My memory is foggy but I thought he was the only one without a gun, and was trying to convince GZ to free his mind.

What I meant is that he had no problem arming everyone with guns and telling them to shoot at Gestalt (though I'm sure he knew it wouldn't work). Before that incident we're talking about though (where he almost broke his shackles), he called Gestalt an abomination.

Yeah, you can say anything you want but I don't see any good reason to "charge into a billion guys with guns" when there are only 3 of them. Of course that's assuming that there were a billion guys with guns, and not just Sarah Kerrigan whom they mistakenly thought they could handle. Either way, end result, they failed at accomplishing their goal. Sarah Kerrigan successfully accomplished hers.

That's a matter of perspective. Mengsk's goal was to delay the Protoss so that the Confederates couldn't escape, but the Protoss reached the planet anyway.

[Pandonetho]

What I meant is that he had no problem arming everyone with guns and telling them to shoot at Gestalt (though I'm sure he knew it wouldn't work). Before that incident we're talking about though (where he almost broke his shackles), he called Gestalt an abomination.

Well of course. He knew fully well that GZ was coming to kill/capture them all so why wouldn't he tell the other Khalai to protect themselves? He himself was honourable enough though to go in without a weapon to try to free GZ's mind. And let's face it, if you really think Muadun himself personally had no qualms about destroying GZ, you don't think he could have just fried GZ's brain when they were in close contact, instead of just simply disabling the inhibitor?

That's a matter of perspective. Mengsk's goal was to delay the Protoss so that the Confederates couldn't escape, but the Protoss reached the planet anyway.

It really isn't a matter of perspective because Sarah Kerrigan accomplished her goals of preventing the Protoss from descending upon the Zerg's primary hive to destroy it. The Protoss failed to destroy it with their ground forces, allowing for the Confederacy's complete destruction. Kerrigan wasn't trying to stop the Protoss from breaching the planet.

Billions of zerg were lured to Tarsonis, laying waste to the Confederacy's defenses. The protoss followed, descending upon the zerg's primary hive.[21]

Mengsk ordered Kerrigan to protect the primary zerg hive from the protoss Expeditionary Force, allowing the zerg to complete the Confederacy's destruction. Jim Raynor was increasing uncomfortable with Mengsk's leadership and motivations, but was unable to convince Kerrigan to allow him to accompany her.[21] Kerrigan completed her mission but was in turn overrun by the zerg.

[Gradius]

It really isn't a matter of perspective because Sarah Kerrigan accomplished her goals of preventing the Protoss from descending upon the Zerg's primary hive to destroy it. The Protoss failed to destroy it with their ground forces, allowing for the Confederacy's complete destruction. Kerrigan wasn't trying to stop the Protoss from breaching the planet.

The wiki isn't really a valid source for quoting. Here's what it says in the actual game after the mission:

The fleet has lost contact with the ground forces at New Gettysburg. General Mengsk has ordered the immediate disengagement of the Korhal fleet from the Tarsonian system. Protoss and Zerg forces continue to battle across the core continent of Tarsonis.

You said that the Protoss failed in their goal. So what was that? Not destroying the hive? There's no proof that they didn't. The simple fact is that they wouldn't have continued fighting if they thought the planet couldn't be saved. They simply suffered a setback on a part of the planet they didn't care about.

[Pandonetho]

You said that the Protoss failed in their goal. So what was that? The simple fact is that they wouldn't have continued fighting if they thought the planet couldn't be saved. They simply suffered a setback on a part of the planet they didn't care about.

Isn't it obvious what their goal was? It was to try to save the Terrans of Tarsonis, which they clearly failed. Just because they continued to battle the Zerg doesn't mean anything when the picture doesn't even involve the Confederacy anymore. Mengsk disengaged because Kerrigan accomplished her goal to his satisfaction, which knowing the bitter man that he is, is the utter and complete destruction of the Confederates, which is what happened.

So what was that? Not destroying the hive? There's no proof that they didn't.

As for your post edit, it doesn't matter if they destroyed the Hive or not. The Confederates had already been crushed. Mengsk already disengaged. What else do you think the Protoss wanted to do? They kept fighting yes, so what? You think they're going to start loading up any remaining survivors onto their ships or something? I'm pretty sure fighting against the Zerg isn't as simple as just walking away when you realize that the planet is gone beyond any doubt.

[Gradius]

Where's the proof that they failed. Several Confederate people survived, like Handy Anderson, or a bunch of the characters from SC:G Nova. The Protoss could care less about the Confederacy, so that's not really a failure on their part to preserve the old terran government if that's what you're saying. It was the Zerg that gave them trouble, not Kerrigan's little force that backstabbed them while they were trying to fight Zerg.

[Pandonetho]

Where's the proof that they failed. Several Confederate people survived, like Handy Anderson, or a bunch of the characters from SC:G Nova. The Protoss could care less about the Confederacy, so that's not really a failure on their part to preserve the old terran government if that's what you're saying. It was the Zerg that gave them trouble, not Kerrigan's little force that was demolished.

I seriously think you should read your own posts sometimes. You sound like such a hardcore Protoss fanboy you can't even accept one factual thing about the game and start going on about huge speculative scenarios. The fact of the matter is that the game says Kerrigan accomplished her goals of preventing the Protoss from destroying the primary hive. The Protoss failed to destroy it when it was relevant. I'm not even remotely saying they care about the Confederates. If you had bothered to read I said they were trying to save the Terrans of Tarsonis.

Now tell me, how do you expect to do that when the Confederates have been destroyed and they don't have the resources to save anybody? If they had resources rest assured they would save themselves first. And so what if a couple of dudes escaped? It's inevitable but that isn't even remotely relevant as the Confederates don't even pose a threat to Mengsk, which was his goal in the first place, to prevent many Confederates from escaping.

Really, if you're so insistent on this, would you mind outlining what their goal is for me? Because you certainly seem to think that everything I mention is wrong in some way, but you haven't even provided your position on this debate except for all this speculated junk. Maybe if we agreed on what the goals of the Protoss were in landing on the Planet instead of incinerating it then we could have a point from which to debate.

You ask me to provide proof about them failing. Well why don't YOU first provide me with what you think their goal was?

You took the game and quoted the aftermath of the fight mentioning that the Protoss were still fighting. So what? Are you saying that the Protoss DIDN'T descend on the primary hive cluster? What's the point of descending on the primary hive cluster if you don't have a goal? Yes that makes total sense, we're going to DESCEND on the primary hive cluster, but we have no goal. Kerrigan accomplished her goal of preventing its destruction, but we the Protoss just descended on it to chill out, so nope we didn't fail anything right?

t was the Zerg that gave them trouble, not Kerrigan's little force that backstabbed them while they were trying to fight Zerg.

You're just getting ridiculous. Kerrigan and her force backstabbed the Protoss? Since when the hell were they allied in the first place? I'd like to see your proof for that.

[Gradius]

I seriously think you should read your own posts sometimes. You sound like such a hardcore Protoss fanboy you can't even accept one factual thing about the game and start going on about huge speculative scenarios.

Yes, my bad for supplying actual evidence such as names of people who survived or using actual in-game quotes instead of wiki summaries. I'll try to be more like you from now on: make claims first, then worry about whether those claims have substantiating evidence later.

The fact of the matter is that the game says Kerrigan accomplished her goals of preventing the Protoss from destroying the primary hive. The Protoss failed to destroy it when it was relevant. I'm not even remotely saying they care about the Confederates. If you had bothered to read I said they were trying to save the Terrans of Tarsonis.

Again, what makes you think the Protoss cared about saving it when it was relevant? The planet was largely screwed anyway even before they got there.

Now tell me, how do you expect to do that when the Confederates have been destroyed and they don't have the resources to save anybody? If they had resources rest assured they would save themselves first. And so what if a couple of dudes escaped? It's inevitable but that isn't even remotely relevant as the Confederates don't even pose a threat to Mengsk, which was his goal in the first place, to prevent many Confederates from escaping.

Uhm, the fact that lots of people were loaded on transports, such as the ones I mentioned.

Really, if you're so insistent on this, would you mind outlining what their goal is for me? Because you certainly seem to think that everything I mention is wrong in some way, but you haven't even provided your position on this debate except for all this speculated junk. Maybe if we agreed on what the goals of the Protoss were in landing on the Planet instead of incinerating it then we could have a point from which to debate.

You ask me to provide proof about them failing. Well why don't YOU first provide me with what you think their goal was?

You're the one who said they failed in their goal, not me, so it's your job to tell me what it is. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim (you). The Protoss went in, saved as many people as they could because Tassadar was a nice guy and felt obligated to help out, end of story.

You're just getting ridiculous. Kerrigan and her force backstabbed the Protoss? Since when the hell were they allied in the first place? I'd like to see your proof for that.

No problem:

Mengsk looked at the screen and said, “Interesting report while you were gone.” Mike said nothing, and
Mengsk continued, “Protoss ground forces pitched in to engage the Zerg we encountered. Their leader’s
name is Tassadar. He calls himself the High Templar and Executor of the Protoss Fleet. His flagship’s
name is theGantrithor.”

“Maybe they were impressed with your work and decided to lend a hand. You must have a good press
agent.”

Liberty's Crusade basically canonized the bonus SC mission where Tassadar introduced himself and helped the Sons of Korhal fight Zerg.

But of course, I'm getting bored of being the only one supplying any proof for well....anything.

[Pandonetho]

Arguing with you is ridiculous, because you won't even tell me what you think the Protoss's goal was. You rehash the same arguments all the time, and ask for proof all the time when you supply none yourself. It's really childish.

Yes, my bad for supplying actual evidence such as names of people who survived or using actual in-game quotes instead of wiki summaries. I'll try to be more like you from now on: make claims first, then worry about whether those claims have substantiating evidence later.

You want in game quotes? The adjutant says exactly this. "I've picked up several dozen Protoss warships descending upon Tarsonis. They seem to be heading on a direct course to the primary Zerg hive."

Now what the hell do you think they were doing, heading on a direct course to the primary Zerg hive? Obviously to destroy it. They failed. You say they could have destroyed the hive cluster? Prove it. They failed in their attempt to kill the primary Zerg hive. End of story. Kerrigan even says she neutralized the Protoss at the end of the mission.

I like how you bring up garbage about how Kerrigan's force backstabbed the Protoss and then totally ignore it when I question you about it, let alone the FACT that she and her forces were the only force separating the Protoss and the Zerg. Play the damn mission again maybe it will jog your memory. The Zerg force overran Kerrigan from the North of the map, the Protoss were in the South, Kerrigan's forces in between.

The Protoss didn't necessarily have only one goal. And they certainly failed in their goal to kill the hive cluster because Kerrigan herself says she neutralized the Protoss. Quit being a fanboy. You willingly refuse to be conducive to the debate when I ask you what you think the Protoss's goal was. You know how ridiculous you sound?

Liberty's Crusade basically canonized the bonus SC mission where Tassadar introduced himself and helped the Sons of Korhal fight Zerg.

Nice, quoting a section from when it was talking about Antiga Prime? Yeah, that's totally relevant.

By the way, what's the point of even saying that Handy Anderson survived when it was the SoK that saved him? Really, you should be more honest with your debating instead of just throwing everything out there.

[Gradius]

Arguing with you is ridiculous, because you won't even tell me what you think the Protoss's goal was. You rehash the same arguments all the time, and ask for proof all the time when you supply none yourself. It's really childish.

What do you not get about burden of proof? Did you not say that the Protoss failed in their goal? Does that not mean it's your job to show how? Notice how we aren't arguing that Kerrigan failed. That's because she didn't, and I'm knowledgeable enough to not make such claims, unlike you.

You want in game quotes? The adjutant says exactly this. "I've picked up several dozen Protoss warships descending upon Tarsonis. They seem to be heading on a direct course to the primary Zerg hive."

Now what the hell do you think they were doing, heading on a direct course to the primary Zerg hive? Obviously to destroy it. They failed. You say they could have destroyed the hive cluster? Prove it. They failed in their attempt to kill the primary Zerg hive. End of story.

It's your job to prove it, not mine. Protoss forces still existed after that mission.

You should also be aware that the phrase "heading on a direct course to the primary Zerg hive" has basically been retconned, since this mission was on the ground, and not in space like it was in the game.

Kerrigan even says she neutralized the Protoss at the end of the mission.

Neutralize - to counteract the activity or effect of : make ineffective

In the context of the mission, it means she delayed the activity of the Protoss.

I like how you bring up garbage about how Kerrigan's force backstabbed the Protoss and then totally ignore it when I question you about it,

Ok. Ignore the irrefutable proof that I gave in my last post. No problem. <_<

let alone the FACT that she and her forces were the only force separating the Protoss and the Zerg. Play the damn mission again maybe it will jog your memory. The Zerg force overran Kerrigan from the North of the map, the Protoss were in the South, Kerrigan's forces in between.

LOL

Since it's inconceivable that Protoss were in other places than what you could see on the map right? And since gameplay perfectly represents lore, right? The fact of the matter is that Kerrigan's force was squashed, and we don't know what happened afterwards apart from the fact that Protoss were still there.

Nice, quoting a section from when it was talking about Antiga Prime? Yeah, that's totally relevant.

Are you daft or something? You asked me for proof that they were allied before, so I gave it to you. It was a backstab regardless since any sane being would assume that a Terran force's only purpose on the planet would be to save its own race.

By the way, what's the point of even saying that Handy Anderson survived when it was the SoK that saved him? Really, you should be more honest with your debating instead of just throwing everything out there.

It's about the timing, but since my time is limited I have to pull a wiki quote:

After Mengsk lured the zerg to destroy Tarsonis, Anderson was rescued by the Sons of Korhal;

Again, still bored of being the only one in this debate supplying proof/evidence!

[Pandonetho]

It's your job to prove it, not mine. Protoss forces still existed after that mission.

Um, you said that they could have destroyed the Hive Cluster after. So why aren't you proving it?

You should also be aware that the phrase "heading on a direct course to the primary Zerg hive" has basically been retconned, since this mission was on the ground, and not in space like it was in the game.

And what exactly does this have to do with anything? The whole mission revolved around defending the Zerg from the Protoss. Or are you prepared to provide proof that it wasn't about that?

Since it's inconceivable that Protoss were in other places than what you could see on the map right? And since gameplay perfectly represents lore, right? The fact of the matter is that Kerrigan's force was squashed, and we don't know what happened afterwards apart from the fact that Protoss were still there.

Want to prove it?

Are you daft or something? You asked me for proof that they were allied before, so I gave it to you. It was a backstab regardless since any sane being would assume that a Terran force's only purpose on the planet would be to save its own race.

No, but are you daft? This is what you said. Also, I like how you think the Protoss were trying to support Kerrigan when the whole mission revolved around them attacking her trying to get to the Zerg.

It was the Zerg that gave them trouble, not Kerrigan's little force that backstabbed them while they were trying to fight Zerg.

So prove that Kerrigan backstabbed the Protoss while they were fighting the Zerg? Because the mission, ergo the GAME, directly shows that the only force between the Zerg and the Protoss was Kerrigan herself. No Protoss vs Zerg in that mission, nope! Or else prove it.

Neutralize - to counteract the activity or effect of : make ineffective

In the context of the mission, it means she delayed the activity of the Protoss.

Really? You're really going to make things up and then blame me about not supporting facts? Prove that Kerrigan only delayed them. Because in the mission itself the objective states that you have to destroy the Protoss force. Which she did. Just because there were Protoss around the planet elsewhere doesn't mean anything considering they failed in their goal to get past Kerrigan to fight the Zerg, in that specific location.