Hybrids and insfestations

[Kimera757]

In reality a Protoss should be able to detect other cloaked psychics.

Then why couldn't Muadun detect Gestalt Zero? (And yes, the plant did, which suggests to me that psychic detection requires concentration, attention or something beyond "I win"; it's not that reliable).

Same with those Khalai. Even if they could detect him, they weren't on guard, they weren't expecting to be ambushed by a cloaked psychic.

Shadow Hunters suggested detection technology was not invented because Khalai could not hide their minds from each other (as opposed to, say, during the Aeon of Strife). Although that can't be entirely true, given the invention of the observer. But it seems to me that Khalai might legitimately have a hard time detecting cloaked opponents with their minds.

But then ghosts have a hard time hiding their minds from each other. So I think we're stuck with "sometimes a Khalai can detect a cloaked opponent" which means sometimes they can't, subject to a "sliding scale" depending on which evidence a reader rates "higher".

Sarah Kerrigan detected another Ghost in StarCraft: Uprising when it sneaked up behind her. The ghost's alpha waves broadcast its general direction or something.

Yeah, she detected him at long range, actually. Having said that, it's the only time we've seen such long-range detection. (Except for Malcolm Kelerchian, who, to be fair, was tracking Nova's psychic explosion.)

Infested Kerrigan could detect Zeratul when he was cloaked as well. Neither Infested Kerrigan or Sarah Kerrigan are detectors in game.

On the other hand, they're both above-average psychics. They both seem to have done a better job than, say, Muadun. (Not to bash Muadun, though.)

Regardless of who is right, though, I don't think you can just ignore a piece of lore as "fake". We know Kerrigan fought protoss (as seen in that picture), and we know she survived to be taken down by the zerg instead. A way of taking that image into account without ignoring it might be to say "Kerrigan went 'oh crap!' and retreated a greater distance".

By the way, the ability to detect psionics varies from one story to another. According to Mengsk in Liberty's Crusade, a zerg can only detect a psychic within a few feet (close enough to smell 'em out anyway) without the use of a psi-emitter... but in War-Torn, a low-psychic terran could detect Colin Phash at such close range it was basically a useless ability. He used zerglings, which could track the boy through a whole refugee camp.

Even in Uprising, Kerrigan could track that ghost at long range, but when she entered the Ghost Academy, she never detected any ghosts, and we can presume no ghosts detected her (as she was never attacked). That drunk ghost who was in the bar at the same time as herself didn't detect her either (but, to be fair, he'd just had an inhibitor put in his head, and was drunk).

[Kknewkles]

Totally.

Back on topic now, the one Terran/Protoss Hybrid we've had so far is way cooler than any other Terran made Terran/Zerg hybrid.

There were Terran made Terran/Zerg hybrids??

[Kimera757]

There were Terran made Terran/Zerg hybrids??

At least twice.

[Gradius]

Then why couldn't Muadun detect Gestalt Zero? (And yes, the plant did, which suggests to me that psychic detection requires concentration, attention or something beyond "I win"; it's not that reliable).

Muadun was preoccupied - in contrast to Sarah Kerrigan who was looking for the ghost, or Infested Kerrigan who was looking for Tassadar but found someone else instead.

On the other hand, they're both above-average psychics. They both seem to have done a better job than, say, Muadun.

Muadun broke his neural inhibitor, so Kerrigan is not more powerful than him if that's what you're saying.

If the Tal'Darim detected a shielded Rosemary so easily in Shadow Hunters, and Colin was detected so easily by Zerg and that Wrangler, I think we can allow for the fact that Protoss could sense where a cloaked ghost is. Zeratul for example should be able to shield his thoughts even better than Infested Kerrigan given his decades of experience, but he was detected anyway. As for the painting, I contend that Kerrigan had hideous amounts of backup instead of running away & cloaking.

Regardless of who is right, though, I don't think you can just ignore a piece of lore as "fake". We know Kerrigan fought protoss (as seen in that picture), and we know she survived to be taken down by the zerg instead. A way of taking that image into account without ignoring it might be to say "Kerrigan went 'oh crap!' and retreated a greater distance".

Well, nobody is saying it's fake i.e. my quote that "For all we know there were a billion Marines behind her in the painting."

[newcomplex]

He used zerglings, which could track the boy through a whole refugee camp.

Weren't they special zerglings?

I might have misremembered though.

[Pandonetho]

Muadun was preoccupied - in contrast to Sarah Kerrigan who was looking for the ghost, or Infested Kerrigan who was looking for Tassadar but found someone else instead.

Really? She was looking for the Ghost? Then she obviously detected it because Ghosts aren't supposed to be "known" boarding another ship when they're planning an assassination, unless it's directly mentioned that everyone knew a Ghost boarded the Hyperion, so that Kerrigan started directly looking for him.

BTW, Muadun was busy admiring a flower, and not only that he realized that the flower had detected something and he still didn't realize Gestalt was there until GZ literally paralyzed him with a dart at close range.

Muadun broke his neural inhibitor, so Kerrigan is not more powerful than him if that's what you're saying.

He broke it after Burgess lowered the inhibitor. He didn't break the inhibitor when the inhibitor was fully operational.

Weren't they special zerglings?

Nope, regular ol Zerglings that got lobotomized to sever their connection to the Zerg. They also had collars that were to act as a fail safe just in case the Lings turned on people that they weren't intended to be turned on, but the technology failed and the Wrangler ended up getting owned.

Btw, we've already been through this topic before.

http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=899

This is what Kimera said in that old topic.

And why can't ghosts sense dark templar? Ghosts detecting each other only appeared once in lore, although there have been several instances of psychics detecting each other. According to Arcturus Mengsk himself, a hydralisk can "sniff out" a ghost at very short range, about the same range they could detect them psionically. I get the impression that none of the species are attuned to each other, which lets a ghost sneak up on Muadun. (The flower did detect him, but only at very close range.) Basically, the Energy Radar ability, but at much shorter range; you know they're there (you can see the dot on the mini-map) but that's not good enough to target your opponent.

Anyway.

Well, nobody is saying it's fake i.e. my quote that "For all we know there were a billion Marines behind her in the painting."

Yeap, in that case if that were true, we definitely know who's the smarter species. The "billion marines with guns" or "the guys with melee weapons charging at them".

As for the painting, I contend that Kerrigan had hideous amounts of backup instead of running away & cloaking.

We can contend all day about something that isn't even remotely shown (basically, non existent) but that would be totally pointless because there's no proof of it at all, and it would be counter productive to debate about non existent things (IE debating that there are a crap load of troops supporting Kerrigan in that scene, when it doesn't show that at all.)

Also, purely curious here. But what instance of Zeratul being detected are we talking about? Are we referring to the cinematic? And if so, how do we know Zeratul was cloaked or trying to hide his presence?

[Gradius]

He broke it after Burgess lowered the inhibitor. He didn't break the inhibitor when the inhibitor was fully operational.

Wrong. Read it again. Burgess demanded a full diagnostic of the inhibitor after Muadun broke it the first time after it was lowered. Then Muadun broke the fully functional one while in his cell. It's too bad that Muadun didn't succeed the first time around though. He broke the giant metal constraints with his bare hands and was so close to beating that weak-as-crap gestalt zero into a pulp.

Really? She was looking for the Ghost? Then she obviously detected it because Ghosts aren't supposed to be "known" boarding another ship when they're planning an assassination, unless it's directly mentioned that everyone knew a Ghost boarded the Hyperion, so that Kerrigan started directly looking for him.

Except if you read the book it was known that a Ghost was on board since one of the people mentioned seeing an invisible soldier right before. Seriously, why would you even comment on this when you have zero clue what's being discussed?

Yeap, in that case if that were true, we definitely know who's the smarter species. The "billion marines with guns" or "the guys with melee weapons charging at them".

We can contend all day about something that isn't even remotely shown (basically, non existent) but that would be totally pointless because you can't prove it anyway and I don't really feel like going through pages debating about non existent evidence.

Though you are the master of arguing for positions with nonexistant evidence (such as psionics being magic in a sci-fi game), I don't really recall asking your opinion. Either way, I'll just assume that those Zealots in that painting never died since that's not what the painting shows.

Also, purely curious here. But what instance of Zeratul being detected are we talking about? Are we referring to the cinematic? And if so, how do we know Zeratul was cloaked or trying to hide his presence?

It's in Queen of Blades not the cinematic.

[Pandonetho]

Wrong. Read it again. Burgess demanded a full diagnostic of the inhibitor after Muadun broke it the first time after it was lowered. Then Muadun broke the fully functional one while in his cell. It's too bad that Muadun didn't succeed the first time around though. He broke the giant metal constraints with his bare hands and was so close to beating that weak-as-crap gestalt zero into a pulp.

My bad then, I forgot about the second instance.
He did indeed break the restraints but wasn't close to accomplishing anything hostile because despite what you want a Protoss to be, Muadun wasn't trying to kill GZ in the slightest.

Though you are the master of arguing for positions with nonexistant evidence (such as psionics being magic in a sci-fi game), I don't really recall asking your opinion. Either way, I'll just assume that those Zealots in that painting never died since that's not what the painting shows.

What's non existent? Scientific theories proving psionics is scientific? That whole debate was a debate using only theory, so you can really drop the whole evidence thing regarding that. Also, I recall that this is a forum, where I'm free to comment on whatever I want to. As for the Zealots not dying, that could be completely true and I won't debate it. I'm just going to go with the fact that they failed miserably at whatever they were trying to do. And if we take your hypothetical situation to be true, we can agree that those Zealots really deserve a Darwin award.

Except if you read the book it was known that a Ghost was on board since one of the people mentioned seeing an invisible soldier right before. Seriously, why would you even comment on this when you have zero clue what's being discussed?

Why shouldn't I comment on it? I can obviously learn more about the lore if you correct me on it. So there we go, not so hard was it? It's not like I have the book right here right now to look it up. Also, how does one see an invisible soldier?

[Gradius]

My bad then, I forgot about the second instance.
He did indeed break the restraints but wasn't close to accomplishing anything hostile because despite what you want a Protoss to be, Muadun wasn't trying to kill GZ in the slightest.

Why wouldn't he want to kill him? He had no problem shooting at him when he dropped in on the room of him & the Khalai.

What's non existent? Scientific theories proving psionics is scientific? That whole debate was a debate using only theory, so you can really drop the whole evidence thing regarding that. Also, I recall that this is a forum, where I'm free to comment on whatever I want to. As for the Zealots not dying, that could be completely true and I won't debate it. I'm just going to go with the fact that they failed miserably at whatever they were trying to do. And if we take your hypothetical situation to be true, we can agree that those Zealots really deserve a Darwin award.

Well, Protoss are smarter than humans, so I assume they had a good reason for charging in.

Why shouldn't I comment on it? I can obviously learn more about the lore if you correct me on it. So there we go, not so hard was it? It's not like I have the book right here right now to look it up. Also, how does one see an invisible soldier?

"“Sir, it’s Somo. I don’t know if I’m going crazy, but I
think there’s an enemy still alive on board. He just killed
two of our guys and I think he’s on his way to you. I
know this sounds nuts, but ...I couldn’t see him. I
think he must have some kind of cloaking, I don’t know.
I locked myself in one of the compartments.”
“There’s a Ghost on board, general.” Sarah advanced
to the monitors showing the ship’s interior. She moved
to a diagram of the upper deck, scanning the maze of
halls and corridors."

[Pandonetho]

Why wouldn't he want to kill him? He had no problem shooting at him when he dropped in on the room of him & the Khalai.

Really? My memory is foggy but I thought he was the only one without a gun, and was trying to convince GZ to free his mind.

Well, Protoss are smarter than humans, so I assume they had a good reason for charging in.

Yeah, you can say anything you want but I don't see any good reason to "charge into a billion guys with guns" when there are only 3 of them. Of course that's assuming that there were a billion guys with guns, and not just Sarah Kerrigan whom they mistakenly thought they could handle. Either way, end result, they failed at accomplishing their goal. Sarah Kerrigan successfully accomplished hers.

"“Sir, it’s Somo. I don’t know if I’m going crazy, but I
think there’s an enemy still alive on board. He just killed
two of our guys and I think he’s on his way to you. I
know this sounds nuts, but ...I couldn’t see him. I
think he must have some kind of cloaking, I don’t know.
I locked myself in one of the compartments.”
“There’s a Ghost on board, general.” Sarah advanced
to the monitors showing the ship’s interior. She moved
to a diagram of the upper deck, scanning the maze of
halls and corridors."

Why, thank you for enlightening me good sir.