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Thread: Ethics & Homosexuality

  1. #1
    TheEconomist's Avatar Lord of Economics
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    Default Ethics & Homosexuality

    EDIT by Gradius: Continue the discussion from the anime topic here.

    @Kacaier: Are you so worried about sticking to the gray area and staying away from a standard so that you don't step on anyone's toes that you're trying to defend the gray area when it's not even being challenged? While you make some great points that I agree with, they are irrelevant. What we're talking about here is that gays are abnormal. They are the ones that have deviated from the normal function of their bodies. This was brought up because a few people were telling me that it's just another lifestyle that is equally normal and that I should just put up with it if, say, two men start kissing next to me on the bus. That's it. I'm not saying anything else. I have no idea what causes homosexuality, therefore, I'm not going to treat all homosexuals as if it's something they chose to do. Before we knew of mental illness, I'm sure everyone thought, "Why doesn't he just act normal?". That's not what I'm doing.

    All I'm saying is that, as a male who strives to further my "male characteristics", I am not interested in the above "homoeroticism" as Gradius would intelligently put it. That's all I'm saying. No more. No less.

    We are not majority Catholics stating seed may not be wasted.
    They only said that when they actually thought the body only had a certain amount. No one says that anymore. They say that you must not have sex until marriage, certainly, but once you get married you can "waste all of the seed" you want

    Hopefully, the rest of your points will be retracted as they are irrelevant now that I've explained myself.

    you'd be surprised what defines a man elsewhere in the world wethier it be looks or past
    experiences.
    You mean like Japan? No thanks. It's pretty obvious what it means to be a man. If you are a man then your testosterone and other sex chemicals will tell you exactly what it means to be a man. It is not subjective. It is not philosophical. It is not up for debate. Your natural instincts tell you what it means to be a man. It wasn't until today's generation and it's new clique-types that people became confused on what exactly it means to be a man.

    I believe what you're referring to is honor which is entirely cultural.

    Because it's just treats that help you survive and reproduce that are important.
    It's sad that all you want to do is survive instead of thrive. What happened to bettering yourself for you and your spouse or family?

    you can say that fleeing form a fight or attacking from the back are not-manly things
    I don't think I've ever made a point on this forum that 100.000 people didn't immediately associate my argument with something they'd heard before and thus completely miss the point. I'm not saying men don't run. I'm not saying men don't cry. I'm not saying men shouldn't have emotions or love someone. I'm saying that a man should want to look like a man, improve himself like a man, be strong and capable like a man. A man should not aspire to this when creating an image of fantasy:


    Gay sex is not normal in a biological aspect, but saying that sex can be classified in normal, hardcore, kinky and gay is plain stupid.
    LOL, not even close. Hardcore sex would be the more animalistic sex that you would find in porn. Not everyone (particularly women) like such roughness. They would prefer a slower, more relaxed sex which would (I'm quoting from what I've heard before) create love and connections instead of just being about the feeling. Kinky sex would be a preference that someone people have over others. Humans are unique. Just like some people would prefer a certain type of movie, book, or game, a human can prefer certain type of sex. Gay sex is where it starts to go against normal biology.

    To say that anime is directly related with homosexuality is just plain retarded. According to you then half Japan is gay
    Anime is directly related with homosexuality. It is filled with it. The problem with that is is that, if I were not American and know better, I might think some of that was normal or male. Thank God I'm not though. But, gay and not gay is not the issue here. Once again, someone has attached my argument to some other argument they've heard. All I'm saying is that Japan is suffering from a lack of male drive and no longer remembers what it means to be a man. They used to be pretty bad with the Ninjas and the Samurai but now they've .. let's leave it at that.

    I would sincierely appreciate it if this forum would assume that only what I've specifically said I believe is my opinion. I'm tired of saying one thing and then everyone assuming I agree with everything that some group says just because they also happened to agree on that one single point.

    @Pandonetho: Sorry bro. Things got outta hand

    .
    Last edited by TheEconomist; 07-04-2010 at 07:53 AM.

  2. #2
    Gradius's Avatar SC:L Addict
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    Default Re: Just when you thought Naruto anime couldn't get any worse.

    Tychus - don't get me wrong, I have lots of respect for you, but some of your views on ethics are kind of troglodytic. If you're going to keep bringing up biology, you should probably be aware that homosexuality is actually natural. Bison, penguins, and elephants, and an entire range of animals display homosexual behavior, not to mention that some people are actually born intersexual and are biologically compelled to mate with the opposite sex. Here's a good article: http://www.newscientist.com/article/...sexuality.html

    The correct thing to do I suppose is just tolerate it & be happy the gay man isn't hitting on you.

  3. #3
    TheEconomist's Avatar Lord of Economics
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    Default Re: Just when you thought Naruto anime couldn't get any worse.

    1) Some animals do it. Sure. Not all do and humans are an animal that do not do it naturally. Just because some either do it or were born with the tendency to do it doesn't make it normal or natural. It's a deviation. Why are we still on this?

    2) I'm fairly tolerant except when it's right in my face. I just don't watch anime because of it. That's all.

    3) What did I say that you believe is troglodytic? Surely it's not the intolerance which is pretty natural and by definition could not be troglodytic.

    .
    Last edited by TheEconomist; 07-04-2010 at 09:46 AM.

  4. #4
    TheEconomist's Avatar Lord of Economics
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    Default Re: Just when you thought Naruto anime couldn't get any worse.

    @Gradiuis: Here's a nice quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by TychusFindlay
    I have no idea what causes homosexuality, therefore, I'm not going to treat all homosexuals as if it's something they chose to do. Before we knew of mental illness, I'm sure everyone thought, "Why doesn't he just act normal?". That's not what I'm doing.
    I don't hate gay people. I would just prefer it if it's not in my face and if there's something filled with it I ignore it. I don't go around burning them at the stake or whatever for the above reason. If it's something they can't help then, well, they can't help it.

    @XSOLDIER:

    1) It's something that any person who has played the games knows. All Japanese games are made with Western gamers in mind once they reach of a certain budget out of necessity. I've been reading up on the state of the Japanese gaming market for some time. I know what I'm talking about.

    http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3169938

    Read the developer's interviews. Hideo Kojima should be there.

    Plus, Kojima gave a list of his influences for Metal Gear Solid. Most (if not all) of them were American/Hollywood movies.

    http://www.slashfilm.com/2009/01/21/...-hideo-kojima/

    2) Don't know him. At best he's the exception to the rule. Where did I ever speak in absolutes?

    3) The debate here is how and why anime characters look like girls instead of men. You're the one that's gotten off subject

    As for the cuttlefish, great. What does that have to do with people? Some sharks eat their own babies. Should humans do this as well?

    If you see this walking on the street:



    Do you immediately think:

    A) He's a man just like everyone else.
    B) He's a male with a lot of feminine characteristics.

    My point is that a man should never be confused with a female.

    I believe that I'm far more well versed in this media than you.
    In anime. Sure. I hate anime. But I've played enough JRPGs to know enough. The problem here is that you think it's okay for a man to have a large portion of his appearance give the impression of a female. I don't.

    As for weak, I mean in all areas of the word. Whether it be emotional or physical. Anime is filled with whiney, angsty, emo bullshit. Not all anime. Just a lot. Don't come throwing exceptions at me. As for appearance, you're supposed to relate to the character. You're supposed to respect and appreciate all aspects of the character. How can someone do this to some shit like this?

    On a side note: A large majority of JRPGs have to have some homoerotic joke or cutscene. It's quite telling if you ask me.



    strength and weakness of character as a core concept of storytelling MUCH moreso than the Western culture.
    Are you asian?

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    Last edited by TheEconomist; 07-04-2010 at 10:21 AM.

  5. #5
    Gradius's Avatar SC:L Addict
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    Default Re: Just when you thought Naruto anime couldn't get any worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by TychusFindlay View Post
    Not all do and humans are an animal that do not do it naturally.
    But they do. There have been homosexual people since the dawn of time. Alexander the Great, Socrates, Richard the Lionheart, etc. etc.

    Just because some either do it or were born with the tendency to do it doesn't make it normal or natural. It's a deviation.
    It might not be normal, but it's definitely natural. If it's not natural, then why does it exist? It might serve an evolutionary purpose, or it could be useless like male nipples. But it definitely happens consistently throughout all cultures throughout all times.

    Quote Originally Posted by TychusFindlay View Post
    2) I'm fairly tolerant except when it's right in my face. I just don't watch anime because of it. That's all.

    3) What did I say that you believe is troglodytic? Surely it's not the intolerance which is pretty natural and by definition could not be troglodytic.
    I just want to make sure we get our facts straight - homosexuality is actually natural. You said "today's youth are lacking a moral standard" because they think that there is a grey area. There is a grey area; the biology of homosexuality is alot more complicated than a black & white decision, but you said it's not up for debate:

    "If you are a man then your testosterone and other sex chemicals will tell you exactly what it means to be a man. It is not subjective. It is not philosophical. It is not up for debate."

    Biology is actually up for debate. I mean, you also said you don't tolerate homosexuality, so I might be getting mixed messages here, but I just want to make sure we're clear on the biological aspect of this.

  6. #6
    TheEconomist's Avatar Lord of Economics
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    Default Re: Just when you thought Naruto anime couldn't get any worse.

    1) Alexander the Great was a cross-dresser who dressed up like female Gods. There's no evidence he was gay. According to Google, it was a myth perpetuated by a movie. Nothing more. There was also much homosexuality in Greece because of the roles of women in those days and the mistrust and dislike towards them. This was prevelant in the aristocracy because men and women mixed much less than the poor did.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosex...ancient_Greece

    This is a nice example of how it's not natural but is caused by some other problem whether internally, externally, or in the institutions.

    2) We had different definition of natural. Natural to me is what your body naturally desires or does. There are many imbalances and damages that can harm this. For example, bipolarism is not natural. Yes, it happened because of various natural occurences but it is not natural.

    This is the definition I'm using:

    http://sclegacy.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5321&page=2

    3. Conforming to the usual or ordinary course of nature: a natural death.
    a. Not acquired; inherent: Love of power is natural to some people.
    b. Having a particular character by nature: a natural leader.
    c. Biology Not produced or changed artificially; not conditioned: natural immunity; a natural reflex.

    If it's natural then why does homosexuality usually only present itself after the time that sex becomes a focus. If it's natural, then it would be there from the beginning. I read some studies and surveys while you were typing and, from what I've read, homosexuality doesn't present itself until late, late teens at the earliest. That doesn't mean a person didn't know or had no interest in girls but never said anything earlier. The survey itself said basically "the first time I was attracted to a man was in my late teens after I had had a few girlfriends". Going on this, something happened during teens. No one knows what causes homosexuality. Sometimes it's a birth defect (Not natural, by the way. Autism is not natural) or something else. The point is is that in an ideal world under ideal circumstances no person would have to struggle with homosexuality.

    Biology is actually up for debate.
    In regards to this context, no it's not. Not in the least. I'd rather not repeat myself on this though. Maybe it's because I've boosted my testosterone and am, therefore, much more sensitive to the effects of it because I've been on both ends, but it's easy to see that the hormones in your body guide your instincts and tell you what is male and not.

    In fact, have you ever wondered why some women prefer immasculine men while some go for body builders and athletes? Here's why:

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...050665030.html
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ine-faces.html
    http://www.springerlink.com/content/uv30162924473465/

    Testoserone is the major factor in deciding what you are sexually attracted to. The higher the level the more you are attracted to the characteristics of your opposite sex. A man who has lower testosterone would possibly prefer skinner, less curvacious females while if it goes even lower they could prefer their own sex. That might be why homosexuality exists at all. Testosterone can be lowered for any number of reasons from depression, to diet, to vitamin deficiency, all the way down to stress and state of mind. Maybe that's why it usually manifests during the hardest parts of early life.

    That would also explain why homosexuals usually have less masculine facial and physical characteristics. They have lower testosterone which shapes these things.



    .
    Last edited by TheEconomist; 07-04-2010 at 11:10 AM.

  7. #7
    TheEconomist's Avatar Lord of Economics
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    Default Re: Ethics & Homosexuality

    Actually, I would prefer it if the subject is just dropped

  8. #8

    Default Re: Just when you thought Naruto anime couldn't get any worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by TychusFindlay View Post
    All Japanese games are made with Western gamers in mind once they reach of a certain budget out of necessity. I've been reading up on the state of the Japanese gaming market for some time. I know what I'm talking about.
    That's what you do when you try to broaden your audience, is you open the scope of what a particular group finds appealing, or you edit them for a regional release. That however, hurts a lot of games, compared to if they'd been left intact, like the latest Yakuza games.

    Quote Originally Posted by TychusFindlay View Post
    2) Don't know him. At best he's the exception to the rule. Where did I ever speak in absolutes?
    At best an exception to the rule? I don't think so. He's a good example of masculinity in Asian culture, not an excpetion.

    Quote Originally Posted by TychusFindlay View Post
    3) The debate here is how and why anime characters look like girls instead of men. You're the one that's gotten off subject
    Ok. I fail to see how Gene looks like a female character.

    Quote Originally Posted by TychusFindlay View Post
    As for the cuttlefish, great. What does that have to do with people? Some sharks eat their own babies. Should humans do this as well?
    Child cannabilism isn't really even relevant to the debat at all. My point here was that something overly "masculine/feminine" isn't always appealing to the opposite gender, because there are other factors, like character to take into account.

    Quote Originally Posted by TychusFindlay View Post
    If you see this walking on the street:



    Do you immediately think:

    A) He's a man just like everyone else.
    B) He's a male with a lot of feminine characteristics.

    My point is that a man should never be confused with a female.
    A) I wouldn't say that he has a lot of feminine features at all. He's got a visible adam's apple, non-rounded jaw, thick eyebrow. There's not much else to see as his hair, and overcoat cover a majority of his features. Most of what might be considered effeminate is subjective, based on style, rather than phyiscal features. And style is constantly changing and what masculine at one point is always changing, but I don't really see the relevance of this, as the person pictured is neither asian, nor an anime character.

    Quote Originally Posted by TychusFindlay View Post
    In anime. Sure. I hate anime. But I've played enough JRPGs to know enough. The problem here is that you think it's okay for a man to have a large portion of his appearance give the impression of a female. I don't.
    So essentially, it's not an issue with anime at all, but more of the style of people having more androgynous than sexually definate features? That's something that's exists in media EVERYwhere right now in America, Europe, & Asia. It's absolutely not central or exclusive to anime.

    Quote Originally Posted by TychusFindlay View Post
    As for weak, I mean in all areas of the word. Whether it be emotional or physical. Anime is filled with whiney, angsty, emo bullshit. Not all anime. Just a lot. Don't come throwing exceptions at me. As for appearance, you're supposed to relate to the character. You're supposed to respect and appreciate all aspects of the character. How can someone do this to some shit like this?
    Yeah, but there's tons of American media about the same thing. Hell, EMO originated in the United States. If I'm not supposed to state examples with strong characters, that you call exceptions, then what point is there in discussing the topic at all? I CAN appreciate all aspects of the characters because I'm not being closed minded about it, and it's probably why I enjoy a wide variety of media, is because I'm not very easily surprised socially, or offended. It's not shit, just because you have issues relating to it. There's a reason it's popular, and it's because a large variety of people DO relate to it, because it's culturally a pretty big thing right now, like it or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by TychusFindlay View Post
    On a side note: A large majority of JRPGs have to have some homoerotic joke or cutscene. It's quite telling if you ask me.

    It's probably because it's not a big deal. It's not like they're showing a 15 min makeout scene, and it's usually about something awkward. Homosexual joke situations, like two guys accidentally kissing has been around in comedy for a LONG LONG time. It's certainly not something that's Asian or central to anime.

    Quote Originally Posted by TychusFindlay View Post
    Are you asian?

    .
    What does MY race have to do at all about this subject? I have a good feel for culture, and something such as a non-clearly defined gender or gender role isn't something that's shocking or off putting to me. If you don't like anime, that's fine, I'm not trying to make you watch, or even gain any interest in it, I'm merely saying that your idea that most male anime characters are feminine, or posses feminine qualities, isn't true. They more closely resemble an animated interpritation of the males of their culture, which look different than ours, which as the link I posted earlier stated, is a lot of the reason for misinterpritation of a character being "girly". At the very least that it's not much more androgynous / homosexually oriented than any other region's form of media right now.



    LASTLY: I'm still looking forward to Episode 168, though not as much as Chapter 501.


    EDIT: Since this was split by Gradius into it's own thread whilst I was responding, let's just ignore the comments about this not being related to anime, and if you want to respond, just pick out the relevant points so I don't have to go through and modify this whole post.


    X
    Last edited by XSOLDIER; 07-04-2010 at 11:19 AM.

  9. #9
    TheEconomist's Avatar Lord of Economics
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    Default Re: Ethics & Homosexuality

    1) Yakuza = low budget, niche.
    2) We're talking Japan; not Asia. Japan is abnormal even among Asians.
    3) He's not. Definitely one of the more male characters. He still has a along way to go.
    4) What a fish does isn't relevant either and, to the rest, I know. We aren't talking about what men or women prefer though.
    5) Bad example. He's not even Asian now that I look at him. Was all I could find at the time though. Here's some better ones.





    6) I know. I've said that before but Japan has it 100x worse.
    7) If only the jokes I'm talking were so innocent
    8) We'll have to agree to disagree.
    9) So are you Asian or not?
    10) Please. I'm begging you. Let this die. Hope we can get past this and maybe me and you can game in the beta.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Ethics & Homosexuality

    Quote Originally Posted by TychusFindlay View Post
    @Kacaier: Are you so worried about sticking to the gray area and staying away from a standard so that you don't step on anyone's toes that you're trying to defend the gray area when it's not even being challenged?
    Are you so narrow-minded and intrusive as to define everything as black and white? If it does no harm to another human being, there is absolutely no reason to intrude on any personal lifestyle, gray area or not. I don't challenge these gray areas because I don't think they're gray areas. You act as if everything can be labeled into good and evil, right and wrong.

    WHY? Why challenge them? Answer that. Why must we challenge things that have no implications on the human race? Gays don't make straight people turn gay. They're not some disease that will eventually force Humanity to stop having children or some nonsense. While you made no stance to what I'm appearing to accuse, your argument to define these "gray areas" are exactly the same to those who would be accused of such inanity.

    While you make some great points that I agree with, they are irrelevant. What we're talking about here is that gays are abnormal. They are the ones that have deviated from the normal function of their bodies. This was brought up because a few people were telling me that it's just another lifestyle that is equally normal and that I should just put up with it if, say, two men start kissing next to me on the bus. That's it. I'm not saying anything else. I have no idea what causes homosexuality, therefore, I'm not going to treat all homosexuals as if it's something they chose to do. Before we knew of mental illness, I'm sure everyone thought, "Why doesn't he just act normal?". That's not what I'm doing.
    I have absolutely no idea what you're arguing for. Everyone is abnormal in some way. Do you masturbate? Pardon my rudeness, but while health authorities may say masturbation is healthy, that's because we're not doing it as often as we should as a biological animal. I'm all for it, but its entirely abnormal. People who choose not to have children, when capable: Abnormal. People who sit in chairs: An odd stretch, but abnormal. Pooping in a toilet, waking up to an alarm clock, staying up when it's night, wearing glasses, using technological aids, not scavenging for food, et cetera, et cetera.

    I make these points again because I cannot see what you're trying to state. Homosexuals deviated from the norm. So have you. I say you're pretty much a gray area. I see you have no reason to crusade in THAT gray area. If you are uncomfortable with gays, then that's fine. I'm sure you're uncomfortable with women's advertising, yet you don't seek to do anything about it. What if you sit next to two women who are talking about menstruation? I'm sure it would make you uncomfortable as well. Treat gays with the same courtesy.

    You're just another lifestyle that is equally normal and I should just put up with.

    All I'm saying is that, as a male who strives to further my "male characteristics", I am not interested in the above "homoeroticism" as Gradius would intelligently put it. That's all I'm saying. No more. No less.
    Dude. What ARE you saying? You make a point, and stop mid-thought. No one is accusing you to indulge in "homo-eroticism." People are telling you to think gays as people. They deviate out of the norm or what the heck, but that's irrelevant.

    They only said that when they actually thought the body only had a certain amount. No one says that anymore. They say that you must not have sex until marriage, certainly, but once you get married you can "waste all of the seed" you want
    Incorrect. The Pope is still against the distribution of condoms, even to married couples. It made several controversies most recently when he reiterated the Catholic Church's stance on the distribution of condoms to help stymie the spread of HIV. Catholics are not allowed to commit coitus with a condom or any other form of contraceptive, both on not wanting to spill the seed, and to be fruitful. Thus, sex is entirely encouraged, so that you would have as many children as possible.

    However, I see how this specific point can be seen as irrelevant as you're not Catholic. Anyhow, I pointed that out because their teachings have a basis in biology (even being entirely coincidental). We indeed are not supposed to use contraceptives or have sex for recreational purposes.

    Hopefully, the rest of your points will be retracted as they are irrelevant now that I've explained myself.
    I don't see why any of it should be retracted. You say it's irrelevant, but I see no irrelevancy. You speak of biological imperatives and the natural order of things. My entire post was how unnatural we are. Medicines, coitus without procreating, clothing, laws, society, culture, etc. Humans are unnatural to the letter, and to deny homosexuality on the argument of it being unnatural is hypocritical, nonsensical, and irrelevant.

    I don't think my argument is anywhere near irrelevant as your stance.

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