What do you hate the most?

[DemolitionSquid]

Problem is if I forge early, I am basically self-containing myself as zerg will just double expo and will have enough gas to get critical mass mutas sooner... I have to be aggressive vs a mutaling build because even matching expos and macroing equally hard does not pay off once he has 15+ mutas. Under 15 I can deal with.

For Banshees, I just have to remember to get more detection and blink earlier.

15 Mutas is 1500 minerals and gas. That's 15 Sentries for you who RAPE mutas, and you'll want Sentries anyway. You also saved 750 minerals which you can use to build 5 cannons which will stop Nydus worms and burrow roaches too. Its a completely worthwhile investment.

I have no idea where you're getting this idea that fast forge = self contain and lose to his expanding. One of the most common pro Protoss builds right now is to simply wall off with a forge and gateway and use warp-in to push out in complete safety. 2 Cannons behind the wall crushes any Zerglings and Roaches. Its a completely viable and effective tactic.

I'm not advocating spamming 50 cannons. That's just stupid. But a few (like 6) around important parts of your base are more than enough for full base defense to let your army stay mobile outside.

[Gradius]

I'd have to say Terran bio balls with Banshees on top is what I hate the most.

Mutas ... >_>

My main problem in PvZ atm. I need to improve my macro and scouting, otherwise I just dont get enough defense to push away mutas that just kill too many probes to keep me in the game.

The second most annoying thing is Banshees... fucking strong units that are hard to counter when your obs is in the other's main seeing the starport and a banshee with cloak is in my main sniping pylons and probes... AAARRRRRRGH

Phoenix.

With ungodly micro, 1 phoenix can theoretically take out infinite mutalisks. What DS said works too.

[DemolitionSquid]

Phoenix.

With ungodly micro, 1 phoenix can theoretically take out infinite mutalisks.

Phoenix are good, and I was going to suggest them, but I decided to err on the side of caution and recommend a counter that didn't require decent scouting.

[protoswarrior]

15 Mutas is 1500 minerals and gas. That's 15 Sentries for you who RAPE mutas, and you'll want Sentries anyway. You also saved 750 minerals which you can use to build 5 cannons which will stop Nydus worms and burrow roaches too. Its a completely worthwhile investment.

I have no idea where you're getting this idea that fast forge = self contain and lose to his expanding. One of the most common pro Protoss builds right now is to simply wall off with a forge and gateway and use warp-in to push out in complete safety. 2 Cannons behind the wall crushes any Zerglings and Roaches. Its a completely viable and effective tactic.

I'm not advocating spamming 50 cannons. That's just stupid. But a few (like 6) around important parts of your base are more than enough for full base defense to let your army stay mobile outside.

DemoSquid, have you ever tried microing 10-13 sentry/stalker between 2 bases vs 15 mutas that can basically 1-2 shot cannons, and avoid losing many probes in the process?

Sure, it works in theory, but microing that is very very hard because sentries are slow.... very slow. Once they reach the mutas he backs off. If you try to split your army with cannon support, your sentries just die. The only life-saving micro you can do is to throw up GS move-attack-moving does not work.

15 mutas can easily knock at my door when zerg FE's with 3-4 spine crawlers and ling/queens to defend. I cannot 4 gate rush as that front door defense is too strong. So what do I do? I expo to my nat as well and throw up 3-4 cannons per nexus. I don't go FE on all maps because I can't. Lost temple, Metalopolis and Scrap Station are the only 3 maps where you can FE with Protoss without having to deal with super early lings and roaches.

On all other maps, FE = suicide. So you HAVE to get 2 gates up and try to delay Zerg's FE with constant zeal pressure till he overcompensates with his lings. By then you have cybercore tech and can use sentries to defend your choke. That's usually when I am able to expo. Against, any Hydra build or ling/baneling/roach build, this route works. Because you can easily get a nat up with enough sentries to FF and if it is baneling, then I switch to stalker/sentry purely. Baneling is easy. Roaches are easy to deal with using stalkers now. Mass speedling from 3 hatch is tricky, but that dies from mass sentry/zealot as well.

FE is very map dependent. If you have a map like Kulas Ravine, FE is not an option. Zerg will ALWAYS have his nat expo up before you and you cannot stop it. If you try to FE, the 2 entrances at the nat make it impossible to stop ling runby's at both the nat and main. You can only defend one at a time. Against, muta-ling, it's even harder as you either HAVE to go Phoenix/Stalker/Sentry or mass Stalker/Sentry and a few zealots. The problem is this Protoss's army is extremely immobile compared to Mutalisks due to the speed of sentries. Ok. So I get cannons. That's ok vs the first 8 or so mutas. But once he has 15-16... Cannons get 1 shotted most of the time. Then I lose probes, and my econ suffers and I have to keep on rebuilding. I'm not saying I haven't tried getting 6 cannons, but those cannons are really useless vs mutas at a time he has 15-16 which means that (as you said) I have a bunch of sentries and stalkers. If I try going Phoenix, I have to get pure Stalkers with a few zealots mixed in to take on lings, not to mention I require the Blink upgrade or the stalkers just die too fast.

There is no way in hell you can manage to outmacro a zerg of equal skill in a muta build unless you caused enough econ damage eraly on to be ahead in Phoenix/Stalker count. That is the only way you can beat a muta build. Mutalisk in groups of 24+ are invincible. They damage everything so fast, you can only basically type "gg" if you let him get that many.

And it isn't hard. While you're busy dealing with mutas, he has double expoed to a gold and a normal expo. You move out, you lose too many probes and cannons in the process. Macro is key but so is tech choice and timing. Micro to a lesser extent. The hard part is having just enough Phoenix and stalkers to beat the mutas and be able to kill lots of drones, and then tech switching to something like HT storm to deal with an eventual tech switch to hydras from zerg. And, 3-4 base hydra is VERY deadly without anything like Storm or Colossi. The fact that either tech tree takes so much time to reach even after you go Phoenix to deal with mutas, makes the balance really thin.

I don't know if you've ever played really good high level Gold and Platinum/Diamond Zerg players that go for muta-ling into Hydra-ling builds. But, let me tell you that the mutalisks are the hardest part of the whole game as, even if you are able to tech switch to Temps or Colossi, Zerg just needs 1 volley of 6-8 mutas, while you're busy with his hydra-ling army, to hurt your econ really bad even if those mutas are sac'd in the process. You would be hurting more than him.

I'm sorry for the large amount of frustration written here, but I needed someone to understand my pov with mutas - and this is something I have trouble with since day1. I've gotten better against lower skilled muta players, but equal skilled muta builds or even slightly higher level of skill just rapes. There is no way you can keep track of the mutas and deal with the rest of the base micro to pull off a successful transition into a useful tech, in time.

It is easy to go: "Yeah! Phoenix beat mutas with the right Micro! Dumbass!"

I want you to actually try microing 15-16 Phoenix and like 8-10 stalkers + 3-4 sentries against 16-18 mutas and speedling support (numbered in the high 40's). And, while doing that, try MACROING for that matter.

Fucking impossible unless I am like Bisu or something (Yay he is back!).


Phoenix is much harder to micro than it seems because they die so fast. Husky usually refers to them as paper-planes, and boy is that true...

[DemolitionSquid]

I didn't want to say this, but if you let your opponent actually get 15 Mutalisks, you deserve to lose cause you weren't scouting and prepping with Templar or Phoenix. Phoenix slaughter Mutalisks even without micro. You're just lazy.

[protoswarrior]

You didn't read my post properly. At the end I do mention that I am at 15 or so Phoenix fighting 16-18 mutas. I DID scout him, I COULDN'T slow him down because of the 5-6 spine crawlers and queen/lings, and with my first few phoenix, there isn't much that can be done as by that time he is well defended with 2 queens per base to thwart any phoenix harass - sometimes, they even have a spore crawler at each base as well.

So, no ground can attack his base early enough, and no Phoenix can penetrate his defense all the while he techs up to his first 8-10 mutas and speedlings, which he uses to effectively harass my base and kill 4-5 probes or so and get out. Then, he comes in with another 8 mutas + his original 7-8.

I got 15-16 mutas, 18 if he doesn't lose any, and I have macroed up and expoed to my nat to have the force I mentioned before. With only a few speedlings he can track Phoenix movement and I am forced to keep my main ground army close to my bases if he counter-attacks with lings (which has happened to me b4).

Basically, I took all my Phoenix and stalker/sentry zealots and attacked one of his expos (on LT 3 o'clock). He uses his mutas and a few ground lings to keep my army engaged, and he pulls back his mutas when he loses a few - meanwhile he sent his wave of 28-30-ish lings into my nat or main and killed all my probes and cannons (4 at each base) ...

I did not DESERVE to lose there. Mutas force you to get a useless unit composition that doesn't work against anything else but muta-ling. And even the ling part is not really countered because zerg does not need 36 speedlings to kill all your probes; only 12-15 are enough. You lose your econ, zerg expos again while you destroy one of his other expos, and he is back to where he was and you are behind. Eventually, the muta numbers stack up, OR he tech switches to hydras and you're fucked.

[DemolitionSquid]

I'd like to know how 28-30 lings get into your base when you're properly walling off or scouting for Nydus worms.

Oh wait...

[protoswarrior]

You can't wall your natural off completely... you realize that right?

[DemolitionSquid]

You can't wall your natural off completely... you realize that right?

On almost every single map you can. You can even wall in Metalopolis pretty well.

You DO NOT NEED to fast expand versus Zerg. You can play 1vs2 base quite easily by just staying active. Warp-In more than makes up for Mutalisk mobility, you can reinforce any position in your base almost instantly with it. Your problem is just bad mechanics and laziness.

[protoswarrior]

How can you say that? You've watched me play before when I was in Silver League, but when I was in top Gold, I don't think you've ever seen me play. I have improved A LOT lol!

Anyways, I will take your advice at heart and try it when phase 2 starts. I am practicing on the BO tester map for now. I will try to incorporate 1 base and see how many phoenix I can manage to get before I expo. Thanks bro.