Why did Blizzard fail (so far) with Bnet 2.0?

[Blackdogkt]

@Blackdogkt: Blizzard games do not depreciate very fast. StarCraft 2 will likely depreciate much more slower than before. I do not recommend waiting for it be cheaper.

It's not about saving money, it's about the fact that i don't like getting shut indoors to play computer games during summer unless it's a lan party with good music, alcohol, friends and a collection of really stupid movies aka just like a frat party with a couple of SC2 matches thrown in among the general mayhem.

So, if the final product turns out to be less than i expected i can very easily just skip it for a few months. It's not about money, it's about taking a stand and saying "i won't be part of your 1st month sale statistics that make the big headlines, even if i do buy it in the end". That is, if the end product is indeed found to be lacking. If it's not i might still delay my purchase, but only due to summer and not in order to flip them the bird

So you want me to use arbitrary numbers that make me look like I know what I'm talking about in order for you to understand common sense? Sorry, my name isn't ArcherofAiur.

I hope you do realize that you also tear down your own argument by saying not every one of the people who watch the Starcraft 2 trailer is a genuine fan. Not everyone who watched the Husky video is in automatic agreement to what he says.

I've sent the video to many many many people I know who don't care about Starcraft. For the kittens.

I think he means (exagerrated example for emphasis, no offence meant):
"Not everyone who watched the SC2 trailer on TV is a fan, but people who watch stuff on youtube most likely specifically search for that stuff. Ergo, comparing the youtube view numbers is a better representation than comparing Husky's 300k views with hordes of people like random granny ironing her grandson's sports practice outfit and catching a glimpse of Kerrigan surrounded by Zerg on Tarsonis while said grandson is watching the NBA game".

At least that's what it seemed he meant from where i'm standing, corrections welcome as always.

In the end, the whole issue is a case of development time/cost vs functionality and expanded user choices. In that vein people get disappointed, or even p*ssed off, when something they've gotten used to is omitted in favor of new features that don't incorporate the previous functionality they've come to know and use for so long. The best case scenario would not be "bnet1 features OR bnet2 features", it would be both so people can choose and use what suits them best. Of course, we don't know what is going to be done in the end or how long it will take until it's done, so i'm still not voting as everything is still very much up in the air/undecided.

[Triceron]

A better representation it may be, but the numbers are still arbitrary. Youtube is not Blizzard's primary source of media distribution, while it IS for Husky.

[ArcherofAiur]

Tric enough fooling around, do you have any substantial facts to back up your allegations or not?

[Skyze]

Casuals aren't the only people in my argument.

Dare I say it? There could be HARDCORE players who don't give a shit about Facebook, Chat channels (Public) and the other complaints. They simply don't use it, so it doesn't affect them.

Regarding the Ladder system, it's simply something we will have to wait and see if it works or not. There's no way to fully test out the Beta Ladder because there so few experienced gamers who are playing competitively. Skyze, you even said you have no reason to continue playing because you already reached the top. Do you think you're the only one in that position? Do you not think there are other people who may have reached the top of the ladder and thought "You know what? I've got nowhere else to go, and the ladder's going to reset, there's no reason to keep playing right now".

You need to look at the big picture, and that involves EVERY type of player. That's what I'm ultimately saying. I'm not saying 'Bnet is going to be overrun with 1-off casuals'. I'm saying you forgot to include them in your theory that you've beaten all the best players in the beta. I'm saying you've forgot to include them in your theory that EVERYONE hates lack of chat channels and facebook integration. It's simply not true. A lot of people may be peeved at it, but won't go to the extreme of doing something like boycott/pirating to give a big middle finger to Blizz.

You're pretty much making all your arguments based on a 'What If'. You're not saying Blizzard failed. You're saying IF Blizzard fails, and you have absolutely NO data to prove that they will. All you have are assumptions based on your own experiences, which I am telling you is FLAWED based on the nature of the beta.

What use do E-sports tourney holders have with Blizzard's own ladder system when they can run their own using people they know are already pros? What about the Pro Leagues that aren't even implemented into the game yet? Are you somehow worried that a lot of 'true pros' will be lost in lower divisions because some noob got up to Diamond league on an easy division? And that somehow an occurence like that will destroy all tourneys in the future? No matter what argument you have, there's nothing indicating it is a flawed system UNTIL we see it in practice.

War3's system which you hold so highly never started out perfect. The automatching system was atrocious, and it took YEARS to get right. The same is relevant here. Only time will tell.

Chat channels were never a HUGE concern for me, but we NEED private channels. I take it you havent played in any tournaments so far that were hosted on SC, for example; Maul's first SC2 tournament hosted right here on SCLegacy.. So, We had like ~20 people who wanted to play, and guess how we had to communicate? Thru a "friends chat" on bnet, which is opened by the little lame AIM type windows.. So anyways, not only was chatting super cramped to see and deal with 20 people talking at once.. the chat CONTINUED WHILE IN GAMES.. with no way to close the chat! So basically, I was playing a game, and i had 20 people randomly msging thru the chat, which was displaying on my screen during the whole game. You can ask Maul about it, I specifically told him wtf how do I remove this and he said he had no idea, it wasnt possible.. Not even away or dnd worked. So yea, Thats real smart of blizzard.

We need real chat channels to host tournaments in, ones that stop msging when you enter games. But whatever, IRC is probably just going to be coming back to use now, which is lame cause we'll have to be alt-tabbing for hours just to communicate, but its better than blizzards little MSN/AIM chat windows which fuck up your in-game.

Ok, next point. I know for a FACT that I am not the only person who stopped playing ladder, and had no desire to play ladder because of how easy it was to get #1 and how theres no real #1 ladder position and nothing to strive for. I bold that because its the KEY to this whole argument; When talking about the confines of BNET (ie not including tournaments), there is no reason to play BNet's ladder when you cant get true #1 ranking.

I direct you to Ret, the semi-progamer from Europe (also known as ToT)Ret( for awhile) who recently went to korea for 4 months to play for professional korean team CJ Entus.. Direct words from his mouth;

imo this is the worst part of sc2. there is no incentive to play whatsoever if you cant compete

sometimes I feel like I kinda wanna start playing sc2...then I think about how the ladder works...and the thought just goes away instantly

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...ic_id=128576#5

So, a player who is essentially one of the top foreign players in the world (in BW, but due to this fact he is limited in SC2).. saying that Divisions are a horrible idea. Sure, he can play tournaments and crap, but playing on BNet is pointless at this moment. And he confirms it. Until Divisions are gone, BNet is useless for anyone wanting to climb the ladder, whether they are in a more casual state like myself (I dont care about tournaments right now, I just want to be top 10 on the whole server. I cant do that with these divisions, cause I reach my peak so fast of #1 in shitty divisions) or hardcore gamers like Ret.

And if you say "look at the whole picture, we cant make the game just for competitive play".. its so simple, make DIMAOND LEAGUE the only one that has a true ladder, the rest of the leagues can stay the same and be used as placement leagues that you need to work thru to get to Diamond.. That solves all the issues, where people below Diamond who obviously want to say "Oh im #1 in division 25523545 of gold!" can still do that, but Diamond players who are not afraid to know where they actually stand, can get that too. Solves all our issues, doesnt it? But Blizzard isnt that smart.

Sure, WC3's ladder had some minor issues, but they were exactly that; Minor. The System as a whole was as perfect as you could get. Actually, Since I played WC3 more competitively than any other game, playing in WC3L and other leagues, The general consensus among pro players was the OLD matchmaking from WC3 was the better matchmaking. You could climb if you won games, but losing games still hurt your rank enough to move you back. Sure, we were pushing lvl 60, but its more a product of people feeling there was actual progress in playing games, the new WC3 ladder just seemed to take forever to climb levels, because it matched you vs lower people (to save on search time) but still.. The point I am trying to make is, WC3's system in its most basic form, is YEARS ahead of this division crap.

I would even take SC1's Ladder, which had a real global rating (despite being filled with hackers), over SC2's piece of crap they call a ladder.

[Triceron]

1. Private chat IS something they're working on, though it is not being immediately released.

2. Pro League is the tier above Diamond League which is likely not going to have multiple divisions of.

These have been stated before. What is wrong with Private Chat and Pro league?

[Skyze]

Pro league is a myth, just like their cross-realm play and everything else they promised early on in beta which is clearly cut from the game. Until I see it, I wont believe it.

Whens the last time we ever heard of the Pro League from Blizzard themselves?? 2008 Blizzcon wasnt it??

I dont even have faith in a Pro league working, because it will most likely still be division based, they are pretty clear about sticking with their whole division plan, as a recent patch (Was it like end of May??) that added the Diamond league. What was the purpose of that anyways? Copper/Bronze/Silver/Gold/Platinum was fine as is, but they added diamond to remove copper.. Makes no sense whatsoever.

[Dragoonx]

Pro league is a myth, just like their cross-realm play and everything else they promised early on in beta which is clearly cut from the game. Until I see it, I wont believe it.

Whens the last time we ever heard of the Pro League from Blizzard themselves?? 2008 Blizzcon wasnt it??

I dont even have faith in a Pro league working, because it will most likely still be division based, they are pretty clear about sticking with their whole division plan, as a recent patch (Was it like end of May??) that added the Diamond league. What was the purpose of that anyways? Copper/Bronze/Silver/Gold/Platinum was fine as is, but they added diamond to remove copper.. Makes no sense whatsoever.

They added Diamond to remove confusion between Copper and Bronze, something I confused quite many times.

As for Pro-league, I'm sure they are working on that or something similar. At this point your simply guessing what you want it to be to attack it. Personally, I'll sit and wait.

[Triceron]

Pro league is a myth, just like their cross-realm play and everything else they promised early on in beta which is clearly cut from the game. Until I see it, I wont believe it.

Whens the last time we ever heard of the Pro League from Blizzard themselves?? 2008 Blizzcon wasnt it??

I dont even have faith in a Pro league working, because it will most likely still be division based, they are pretty clear about sticking with their whole division plan, as a recent patch (Was it like end of May??) that added the Diamond league. What was the purpose of that anyways? Copper/Bronze/Silver/Gold/Platinum was fine as is, but they added diamond to remove copper.. Makes no sense whatsoever.

If Pro League is a myth, then E-sports support is a myth, no LAN is a myth and SC2 Trilogy is a myth as well? I guess it doesn't exist until it arrives, and until then we should all call bullshit on whatever we don't like, right? I, for one, am FURIOUS at the non-fact that Legacy of the Void will cost $79.99 and require a $15/month subscription fee.

[Skyze]

If Pro League is a myth, then E-sports support is a myth, no LAN is a myth and SC2 Trilogy is a myth as well? I guess it doesn't exist until it arrives, and until then we should all call bullshit on whatever we don't like, right? I, for one, am FURIOUS at the non-fact that Legacy of the Void will cost $79.99 and require a $15/month subscription fee.

Those are things they talk about FREQUENTLY.. At least Recently.

The last time we heard about the Pro League, has been well over a year ago. You can't refute that without evidence.

[Triceron]

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/view...opic_id=122881

http://www.worldofraids.com/wow-blue...divisions.html

Apr 28, 10
In the future, there will be a "Pro League" composed of the top players in the ladder. Players will be invited to the "Pro League" using the same methods that determine current promotions between leagues. This league will not be divided by divisions and will have a set number of participants each ladder season. For the best players, this will be where they can see exactly how they compare to the other top competitors.

However, for now we've adjusted the search methods for players in Copper and Platinum leagues so you should be matched up with players more closely to your skill level.

In my own experience I have found that not having to worry about which division I am in has made the competitive experience more fun. I like knowing that I have been placed in an appropriate skill bracket and have a "Top 100" feel by being in my Platinum league, rather than worrying about being only "Top XXXXX" on Battle.net. If there's someone in a different division that I want to compare my skill to, I can challenge them to a series of Custom Games. This also lets us play multiple games so we can better gauge our relative skill levels.

A year my ass.