Obelisk -vs- Orbital Command

[ArcherofAiur]

Introducing a back to base mechanic purely for the sake of creating back to base mechanic does not a good mechanic make.

No proton charge is not solely for the sake of having the player go back to the base. Proton charge allows you to build more units. Just like supply depots do. Both accomplish this by requiring the player to go back to the base but its not solely for that reason. Your confusing the task with the reward.

Proton Charge only exists because pros judge their skill based on how fast they click, and they're nostalgic for the limited UI of SC1.

and thats the kinda of mischarectorization that caused so many problems during the MBS Wars. Thank you for continueing it.

[DemolitionSquid]

No proton charge is not solely for the sake of having the player go back to the base. Proton charge allows you to build more units. Just like supply depots do. Both accomplish this by requiring the player to go back to the base but its not solely for that reason. Your confusing the task with the reward.

How ignorant can you get?
Its about the basics, man. You will not always need more supply. You WILL always need minerals. Supply has a limit, which once reached kills the mechanic. PC suffers from no such limit, it can and must be used for the entire game. The mechanic gets exponentially more powerful the more Probes you cast it on. The mechanic essentially creates the Carrier's "mass effect syndrome (MES)" problem in a macro means. Which should be obvious to EVERYONE as a really fucking bad thing. And no, Larva and MULEs do not suffer from MES.

and thats the kinda of mischarectorization that caused so many problems during the MBS Wars. Thank you for continueing it.

Again, no, its the kind of truth that you're obviously blind to for some unknown reason I won't even attempt to understand because its clear its completely illogical. The mechanic is bullshit. It is elitist, highly imbalanced (and will remain so by its very nature to control massive amounts of resources), and is frankly boring and tedious.

But you know what? I've had this argument too many times before. There is no doubt in my mind this mechanic could potentially ruin the game. We will see at beta.

[ArcherofAiur]

Its about the basics, man. You will not always need more supply. You WILL always need minerals. Supply has a limit, which once reached kills the mechanic.

That limit is 200 supply. Minerals also have a limit when they run out in which case you do not need to use proton charge any more. Both of these occur in the late game.

[DemolitionSquid]

That limit is 200 supply. Minerals also have a limit when they run out in which case you do not need to use proton charge any more. Both of these occur in the late game.

Have you SEEN the new multiplayer maps? The newest BR showcased a map called Scrapyard. That map contained more resources than anyone could ever hope to go through in 20 minutes, the average length of a SC game. Heck, there were so many minerals they'd be hard pressed to mine it all in a few hours.

And, AS YOU YOURSELF have said, income rate is more important than total resources. How can you not see a critical mass mechanic as anything but a disaster?

[warrior6]

archer, the proton charge unlike other more intelligent macro mechanics, sucks because there is no real reason not to do it every X seconds. there has to be a real draw back to doing proton charge which there isn't. with the terrans, they have to choose between 2 diff types of command centers, the fact that their CC might lose its flight capability and they have to choose between scanner sweeps and mules. the protoss on the other hand do not have this kind of synergistic balance between their macro mechanics.

the problem is, proton charge isnt even interesting or cool. its very dull and boring.

[ArcherofAiur]

Again, no, its the kind of truth that you're obviously blind to for some unknown reason I won't even attempt to understand because its clear its completely illogical. The mechanic is bullshit. It is elitist, highly imbalanced (and will remain so by its very nature to control massive amounts of resources), and is frankly boring and tedious.

But you know what? I've had this argument too many times before. There is no doubt in my mind this mechanic could potentially ruin the game. We will see at beta.

Calling people ignorant and storming off is not going to solve anything. What we should do is try to find common ground as we have before. For instance I would be willing to decrease the frequency with which proton charge is cast (and increase the potency) if we can find some other macro increaseing mechanic for the protoss base. This new mechanic can support proton charge so that no one mechanic is cast frequently out of reptition.

Look I love Starcraft. You love Starcraft. We both want whats best for the game and we happen to have differences of oppinion on some issues. That does not make either of us the villian and the sooner both parties realize this the sooner we can resolve these issues.

archer, the proton charge unlike other more intelligent macro mechanics, sucks because there is no real reason not to do it every X seconds.

Psi Storm sucks because there is no real reason not to do it every X seconds.

BTW I hate to keep using this same analogy but until you guys start coming up with reasons that arnt applicable to psi storm im going to have to. And of course your going to reply by saying something else about psi storm is different from proton charge as if it makes a difference. What you should do is start arguing with that something thats not applicable to psi storm from the get go. Then we can save ourselves allot of touble.

the problem is, proton charge isnt even interesting or cool. its very dull and boring.

Personal preference. Personally I think having more zealots and overrunnig you with them is quite exciting.

[DemolitionSquid]

[QUOTE=ArcherofAiur;8061]Calling people ignorant and storming off is not going to solve anything. What we should do is try to find common ground as we have before. For instance I would be willing to decrease the frequency with which proton charge is cast (and increase the potency) if we can find some other macro increaseing mechanic for the protoss base. This new mechanic can support proton charge so that no one mechanic is cast frequently out of reptition.

Look I love Starcraft. You love Starcraft. We both want whats best for the game and we happen to have differences of oppinion on some issues. That does not make either of us the villian and the sooner both parties realize this the sooner we can resolve these issues.[/quote[]

There is no common ground. In my mind the mechanic is fundamentally flawed and the only solution to it is to scrap it. "Decrease the frequency with which proton charge is cast (and increase the potency)" won't fix the problem, because that's not the problem. The problem is that it serves no purpose beyond being an APM sink, and an imbalanced one at that. Its a build order inclusion, nothing more. It requires the player to perfect its use to an extreme that only pro gamers can achieve. It will ruin the game for any casual players because its not fun, its just busywork, and it provides no strategy beyond "get it asap or your economy will suffer by a HUGE margin."

Psi Storm sucks because there is no real reason not to do it every X seconds.

But Psi Storm doesn't suck. You could build enough HT to cast Psi Storm forever. But Just having HT casting Storm cannot win you a game. You need diversity, you need a unit who can damage buildings. Proton Charge DOES suck because there is a real reason to do every x seconds. That reason is if you don't, your economy will suffer exponentially against your opponent who is using it. Every time you forget it, or are even off by a second, you will lose the economic battle. It takes the already intense resource rush to another level. A level that I feel will provide far more frustration than fun.

BTW I hate to keep using this same analogy but until you guys start coming up with reasons that arnt applicable to psi storm im going to have to. And of course your going to reply by saying something else about psi storm is different from proton charge as if it makes a difference. What you should do is start arguing with that something thats not applicable to psi storm from the get go. Then we can save ourselves allot of touble.

Psi Storm is a choice. You can not use it and try another strategy. PC removes choice - if your economy is going to keep up or surpass your opponent, you will HAVE to use it. That's the difference.

Personal preference. Personally I think having more zealots and overrunnig you with them is quite exciting.

Of course having more zealots and overrunning with them is quite exciting. That was never the argument. The argument is that having to click PC every 40 seconds to achieve that goal is NOT fun or exciting. And yes, I know that clicking on a Gateway to build a Zealot isn't fun or exciting either, but its also not mandatory. PC will be, that's the problem.

[ArcherofAiur]

There is no common ground. In my mind the mechanic is fundamentally flawed and the only solution to it is to scrap it. "Decrease the frequency with which proton charge is cast (and increase the potency)" won't fix the problem, because that's not the problem. The problem is that it serves no purpose beyond being an APM sink, and an imbalanced one at that. Its a build order inclusion, nothing more. It requires the player to perfect its use to an extreme that only pro gamers can achieve. It will ruin the game for any casual players because its not fun, its just busywork, and it provides no strategy beyond "get it asap or your economy will suffer by a HUGE margin."

so yah if your not even willing to look for common ground then your right we wont find any. Luckily there are allot of other posters who are more willing to work towards a solution acceptable to both sides.

But Psi Storm doesn't suck. You could build enough HT to cast Psi Storm forever. But Just having HT casting Storm cannot win you a game. You need diversity, you need a unit who can damage buildings.

"But Proton Charge doesn't suck. You could build enough Obelisks to cast Proton Charge forever. But Just having Obelisks casting Proton Charge cannot win you a game. You need diversity, you need a unit who can damage buildings."

See you did the exact thing i said you would do. You said no its different and then discribed something completly different about than what we were talking about (for reference we were talking about whether x every second spells were bad). Please replace proton charge with psi storm in your post before posting to see if you are making this same mistake again.

[Aldrius]

Psi Storm sucks because there is no real reason not to do it every X seconds.

Um...

Yes there is.

You can...

A) Hit your own units.
B) The High Templar is much more expensive and has less of a purpose. So a dead High Templar is 150 wasted gas, and a poorly utilized High Templar is 150 wasted gas.
C) Not be able to cast whatever secondary ability the High Templar ends up with. Which is almost guaranteed to be more useful than the recharge energy/shield ability is, at least in terms of where the High Templar will be.

[ArcherofAiur]

A) Hit your own units..

I mean cast on enemy units. Just like when you say cast proton charge its implied that your casting on your probes.

B) The High Templar is much more expensive and has less of a purpose. So a dead High Templar is 150 wasted gas, and a poorly utilized High Templar is 150 wasted gas.

If you have a high templar one of the reasons you dont want to cast psi storm is that it costs allot? Id say if you invest that much into teching to high templar you darn well better use them.

C) Not be able to cast whatever secondary ability the High Templar ends up with. Which is almost guaranteed to be more useful than the recharge energy/shield ability is, at least in terms of where the High Templar will bec

The funny thing about that is that untill recently the HT secondary ability was shield recharge.