Immortal & VR: too much of hard-counter?

[DemolitionSquid]

it takes 7 zerglings to kill 1 immortal. no upgrades. to say they drop like flies must mean your including additional support on the zerg side to help kill the immortal, or ratio for the zerg player is in their favor.

please be more clear with the scenario which you are thinking.

7 Zerglings cost 3.5 supply, 175 minerals, and no gas. One Immortal costs 4 supply, 250 minerals, and 100 gas. They are far more cost efficient.

Immortals are not a hard counter to a Zerg not going air. They are Zergling fodder.

[0mar]

I like mixing in immortals against a ground heavy zerg, regardless if he has roaches or not. They are pretty beefy and do a decent amount of damage.

VS Terran, I only get Immortals against an early marauder push, otherwise, they are just wasted money. Marauders beat them for better than cost once you hit critical mass. They aren't too useful against tanks because of everything in front (marines/marauders/hellion). Their shields go down too fast, even if you have zealot/sentry support. Colossus are about the only ground threat you can muster against Terran mech, but I prefer mass zlots/phoenix/void ray.

[Norfindel]

The Immortal is too specific for it's own good. A mixed army will always have something to counter it hard. And that something is much cheaper.

Now, if it were difficult to take out by any unit, and gets its damage lowered to compensate, i think it would work much better. Then you could send it in front to soak damage, instead of melting to cheap-as-dirt infantry fire, and send your other units behind, to buy them time.

[Nicol Bolas]

The Immortal is too specific for it's own good. A mixed army will always have something to counter it hard.

Unfortunately, all it takes is a good Force Field to make sure that those "something" will never actually reach it, since most of the "somethings" are either melee or have short range.

Specialized units are not bad. Immortals do have some legitimate uses, and are quite useful at keeping down the effectiveness of Terran Mech as part of a Protoss's unit composition.

The Immortal is not a line unit and it shouldn't be.

[Norfindel]

Unfortunately, all it takes is a good Force Field to make sure that those "something" will never actually reach it, since most of the "somethings" are either melee or have short range.

Specialized units are not bad. Immortals do have some legitimate uses, and are quite useful at keeping down the effectiveness of Terran Mech as part of a Protoss's unit composition.

The Immortal is not a line unit and it shouldn't be.

The Immortal has 5 range. How is that placing FFs help against the Terrans?

The Immortal is an "specialized damage soaker". A unit that can resist 10 attacks from damage-heavy units, but dies normally against cheap, low-tier units. That concept isn't a good one, IMHO, as that means that focusing fire with some M&M will kill the unit in a matter of seconds.

Worse, once the Shields are down, it will take full damage also from heavy-hitters, so even that special damage soaking goes away after just 100 hp worth of damage from low-tier units.

[mythology]

The Immortal has 5 range. How is that placing FFs help against the Terrans?

The Immortal is an "specialized damage soaker". A unit that can resist 10 attacks from damage-heavy units, but dies normally against cheap, low-tier units. That concept isn't a good one, IMHO, as that means that focusing fire with some M&M will kill the unit in a matter of seconds.

Worse, once the Shields are down, it will take full damage also from heavy-hitters, so even that special damage soaking goes away after just 100 hp worth of damage from low-tier units.

the immortal's damage and bonus damage to me have more influence over the unit's role than the shields do.

the damage lets it counter low tiers and the bonus damage lets it counter heavy tiers. the shields are just there to keep the low tier counters from killing it, like banelings.

so the answer to immortal, if not air ,seems to be overwhelming force. like focus fire or mass low tiers.

what's wrong with that?

what i'm thinking is if someone got a 1-4 dozen immortals, could ground stand up to that? i'm betting no. but i'm only betting that vs zerg.

[Warsaw]

Why don't they just increase the natural shield of the immortal, as well as it's shields but increasing the 10 to let's say 14. Something like that might work.

[Norfindel]

the immortal's damage and bonus damage to me have more influence over the unit's role than the shields do.

the damage lets it counter low tiers and the bonus damage lets it counter heavy tiers. the shields are just there to keep the low tier counters from killing it, like banelings.

so the answer to immortal, if not air ,seems to be overwhelming force. like focus fire or mass low tiers.

what's wrong with that?

what i'm thinking is if someone got a 1-4 dozen immortals, could ground stand up to that? i'm betting no. but i'm only betting that vs zerg.

That's 3000 to 12000 minerals, 1200 to 4800 gas and 48 to 192 supply worth of Immortals. Not going to happend, and only the first row of Immortals will be able to shoot at other ranged targets. I bet that a M&M&M army will totally own them, and also a Zealot + Colossus army. Hydralisks should also work very well.

[Wankey]

Why don't they just increase the natural shield of the immortal, as well as it's shields but increasing the 10 to let's say 14. Something like that might work.

HUh what? 14 means MORE damage is done to immortal.

[Sietsh-Tenk]

I like mixing in immortals against a ground heavy zerg, regardless if he has roaches or not. They are pretty beefy and do a decent amount of damage.

VS Terran, I only get Immortals against an early marauder push, otherwise, they are just wasted money. Marauders beat them for better than cost once you hit critical mass. They aren't too useful against tanks because of everything in front (marines/marauders/hellion). Their shields go down too fast, even if you have zealot/sentry support. Colossus are about the only ground threat you can muster against Terran mech, but I prefer mass zlots/phoenix/void ray.

Mass Zealots, Phoenix and Void ray is a horrible combination! Just massed Marines with a few Medivacs will slaughter that! If you add Collossi, however, it becomes a completely different story.