Marine vs Zealot unarmed

[Hawki]

I guess it's worth remembering that while the protoss are more psionically powerful than terrans, the nature of those powers may differ. The PI Index for instance, only seems to work for terrans, using overlords as an example-have telekinesis, but have never used it as a weapon.

In essence, it's perhaps fair to say that the protoss are similar-have telekinesis, but not necessarily the ability and/or inclination to use it as a weapon. I guess that's why the protoss don't simply reduce terran brains to mush or cause their weapons to jam on them. Same power in general, but different specifics. Or rather, zealots are trained to use their psionics to power their psi-blades and shields. Maybe they could fry brains, but they don't have enough willpower like high templar to keep them powered and do mind tricks simultaniously.

[Sarov]

Or rather, zealots are trained to use their psionics to power their psi-blades and shields. Maybe they could fry brains, but they don't have enough willpower like high templar to keep them powered and do mind tricks simultaniously.

The Protoss form psiblades with their psionic powers. For some Protoss, who might find it very hard (khalai) or aren't trained as well or aren't as adept at using their psionics as the High Templar (zealots), a khaydarin crystal helps them to do so. Khaydarin means "focuser of the heart" and help focus their mental powers, as is evidence in Shadow of the Xel'Naga when Koronis, the Protoss Executor in charge of the Qel'ha, was meditating with a fragment of a crystal. I've long suspected that the crystals in the bracers of the zealot armor are actually khaydarin crystals and that zealots use these to or help create or maintain their psiblades while they use their psionics to enhance their speed (Charge) as well as to maintain their shields.

From the StarCraft wiki page on Protoss zealots:

In battle, zealots wield psionic blades channelled through forearm units in their power suits.[3] Augmented by cybernetic implants, zealots also use their psionic powers to surround themselves with a plasma shield.[2]

So, yes, while the Protoss zealots have psionic power when used for war, they are not as adept as High Templar at maintaining shields, psiblades, and attempting to fry the brains of their enemies.

[Norfindel]

I disagree with the bolded part. Does Valerian even know who Nova is? Does Kevin Bick keep secrets from him? How about his father? Or Dr. Stanley Burgess? The terrans don't seem to know much about protoss in any event, and most of their interactions involve members of the Templar Caste (confirmed to be more powerful in Do No Harm).

We are talking about the son of the emperor. If someone knows about secret information, it's either Arcturus, or him.

But that doesn't mean top-of-the-line psychics, like Nova, can't be more powerful than weak protoss. I don't see random Khalai killing dozens of zerg just by thinking about it. (If they could, how come the protoss nearly lost the war?) That's an ability that Nova has (well, presumed, since she can do that to terrans).

There's nothing like a weak Protoss: "the Protoss are such powerful psychics that they can inadvertently send out psychic "ripples" that are disruptive to other life forms. With careful training, High Templar learn to focus these ripples into a Storm of raw psychic energy that is capable of literally tearing apart the minds of lesser species".
The fact that most Protoss aren't trained into psi-killing doesn't means that you can kill them by using such techniques with much lesser power. You can be a very good in hand to hand combat, but you won't be able to do much damage to something really resistant, like a decent wall.
Put in another way, you cannot stop a fire with a drop of water.
People not trained to do something is unlikely to do it unless it's a desperate measure. Zealots are highly trained in psi-blade use, they aren't going to waste time by concentrating to try to kill someone when they can easily slice them with their blades to have the same effect.
A typical khalai (artisan, engineer, etc), will likely never even tried to kill anything with their minds, and are comparable to any common guy of any race. They will attempt to run away from that kind of shit, and even if he can manage to kill a Zergling, there are still 10000 to rip him to shreds, so even if it happens won't make too much of a difference.

You want to talk about plot inconsistencies? Why don't the Protoss just control the Zerg, or completely disrupt their "communications"? The Terrans could build a Psi Disrupter, why won't the Protoss be able to do something still more powerfull with all the psi tech they have since a loooong time ago?

In fact, Gestalt Zero was able to drop multiple Khalai (in the flashbacks; that's how he kidnapped them, and this was before he got his Muadun upgrade, bringing him to PI 7.5) and, while he was already part-protoss and therefore more powerful than the standard ghost, he was less powerful than ghosts like Sarah Kerrigan (PI 8+) or Nova (PI 10). So how does Gestalt Zero defeat all those Khalai if they could literally think him to death?

Well, obviously he can conceal his toughts if he accomplished that, or their helmets have psi-screen tech, or something like that, but maybe the lesser the power the easier it's to conceal it. Like you have power 5, you only need to conceal that. You have power 10, you need to conceal 10 power.
I mean, you can have the best vision in the world, but if the other guy is very well hidden, you wasn't particularily looking for him, etc, you maybe don't notice the guy.

(And yes, he wasn't dropping them with his mental powers, but the Khalai should have been able to read his thoughts and then stun him with "psychic shouts" if protoss psychics are always more powerful than terran psychics.)

But where the Protoss even searching for something? Because you aren't likely to find something you aren't looking for in the first case. Muadun was taking care of his garden when attacked. He's a HT and didn't noticed the guy. Probably they aren't easy to notice at all when concealed.

[Kimera757]

Zealots are highly trained in psi-blade use, they aren't going to waste time by concentrating to try to kill someone when they can easily slice them with their blades to have the same effect.

I wouldn't expect a zealot to do that in a pitched battle, but in a two-on-one combat with a hydralisk, there's only one reason not to do that. Because you can't. A zealot died in combat with the Revelations hydralisk. If one stunned it and the other sliced it, neither protoss would have died, and probably neither would have even been injured.

You want to talk about plot inconsistencies? Why don't the Protoss just control the Zerg, or completely disrupt their "communications"?

Because you need a plot device to do that, and those devices take a long time to build. (Terrans are more likely to build something really fast, with only a 5% likelihood of working, than the protoss.) Also, controlling even a single zerg is probably not that easy if you don't have the secret zerg frequency (eg being really lucky, like Sarah Kerrigan).

The Terrans could build a Psi Disrupter, why won't the Protoss be able to do something still more powerfull with all the psi tech they have since a loooong time ago?

Actually, some protoss have done so (eg Ulrezaj, in Enslavers II). It was seen as dishonorable, though. (Why do you think the series is called Enslavers? The enslaved ones were zerg and that's still seen as wrong.)

Well, obviously he can conceal his toughts if he accomplished that, or their helmets have psi-screen tech, or something like that

Ummm... no. Ghosts don't come with that standard, and Muadun was able to, well, mind-rape Gestalt Zero pretty easily. He was not wearing a psi-screen. Dr. Burgess was, although of course that didn't make him psi-bladeproof

but maybe the lesser the power the easier it's to conceal it. Like you have power 5, you only need to conceal that. You have power 10, you need to conceal 10 power.

Maybe. That's pretty reasonable. But somehow I doubt it. Zeratul is a powerful psychic, but is still capable of sneaking up on protoss. (Like he demonstrated in the mission where you destroy the Heart of the Conclave.) And even Infested Kerrigan can still cloak.

But where the Protoss even searching for something? Because you aren't likely to find something you aren't looking for in the first case. Muadun was taking care of his garden when attacked. He's a HT and didn't noticed the guy. Probably they aren't easy to notice at all when concealed.

In Uprising, Sarah Kerrigan was able to sense a ghost at quite a long distance despite not expecting one, and there was nothing to indicate said ghost was more powerful psionically than any standard ghost. Now, aren't all protoss supposed to be more powerful than her?

But where the Protoss even searching for something?

They'd start looking when the first one fell, even if they only wanted to know where he was so they could run. And perhaps they did run, but I can't expect to see Khalai just running away and making no effort at all to defend their friends (especially if they could just, you know, stun him once they'd locked on mentally).

That stuff about "ripples" doesn't concern me much. Nova could blow up skyscrapers with her powers, and Dark Templar can generate psionic storms powerful enough to destroy jungles without assistance (but without control), but no one mentions those in these discussions because that's dealing with power that cannot be reliably controlled.

[Pandonetho]

So Norfindel, you're arguing that even the lowliest Protoss has higher psionic powers than Nova? That's what I'm reading from your posts.

People not trained to do something is unlikely to do it unless it's a desperate measure.

Nova blew up an entire block with her psychic powers due to a circumstance which forced her into great grief. Are you saying that a Khalai is able to do that as well? Because as far as I'm aware, it's never happened.

[Sarov]

But that doesn't mean top-of-the-line psychics, like Nova, can't be more powerful than weak protoss. I don't see random Khalai killing dozens of zerg just by thinking about it. (If they could, how come the protoss nearly lost the war?) That's an ability that Nova has (well, presumed, since she can do that to terrans).

In fact, Gestalt Zero was able to drop multiple Khalai (in the flashbacks; that's how he kidnapped them, and this was before he got his Muadun upgrade, bringing him to PI 7.5) and, while he was already part-protoss and therefore more powerful than the standard ghost, he was less powerful than ghosts like Sarah Kerrigan (PI 8+) or Nova (PI 10). So how does Gestalt Zero defeat all those Khalai if they could literally think him to death?

(And yes, he wasn't dropping them with his mental powers, but the Khalai should have been able to read his thoughts and then stun him with "psychic shouts" if protoss psychics are always more powerful than terran psychics.)

Each tribe was known for most of its members belonging to a certain caste or having a certain duty. Members Ara tribe became Judicators and members of the Conclave. Members of the Sargas tribe were members of the Templar caste but many went on to become Dark Templar. Akilae tribe members become Templar. Furinax tribe members became weapons crafters. Mosst of the Khalai probably come from the Furiniax tribe. The Shelak tribe became Judicators and were probably historians, lorekeepers, oracles/seers etc. The event of the psionic storms ripping apart the jungles of Auir is described on page 234 - 235 of The Dark Templar: Shadow Hunters. Adun was trying to teach the Dark Templar. There would definitely be some khalai within the soon-to-be Dark Templar.

My entire point is this: Just because you cannot do it now, does not mean that you cannot do it later. Perhaps Protoss have the ability to create these things but they do not have the training necessary to control these powers. Which explains how the Dark Templar wrecked Auir. They could make the storms, yes, but they did not have the training to keep them from wrecking everything around them where as High Templars are specifically trained to control them so that they harm a certain area. Perhaps, it is because they know they lack the training that that khalai do not attempt these things and perhaps what the first Dark Templar was a reminder as to why they should not attempt something without proper training.

[Kimera757]

My entire point is this: Just because you cannot do it now, does not mean that you cannot do it later. Perhaps Protoss have the ability to create these things but they do not have the training necessary to control these powers. Which explains how the Dark Templar wrecked Auir. They could make the storms, yes, but they did not have the training to keep them from wrecking everything around them where as High Templars are specifically trained to control them so that they harm a certain area. Perhaps, it is because they know they lack the training that that khalai do not attempt these things and perhaps what the first Dark Templar was a reminder as to why they should not attempt something without proper training.

I don't think we disagree here. Well, not much anyway. But while you make a good point that Khalai-descended Dark Templar are powerful enough to unleash uncontrolled psionic storms, that still goes up against Nova releasing uncontrollable "psi-quakes"; they're not good measurements of power, even if they both demonstrate how much raw power a bottom-of-the-line protoss or top-of-the-line ghost may have.

I'm just saying, I believe that Nova and some other rare terran psychics can reliably do more with their powers than most protoss. (And Valerian Mengsk is a young fellow who has often had information concealed from him by his father. It explicitly states this in Firstborn, although not specifically mentioning the protoss.)

And, given the number of times zealot vs terran or zerg would have ended in victory for the zealot if they could dish out the stunning with the kind of power and/or training that they have (eg any time both sides have limited numbers), if the zealots never do that, I think we can reasonably assume that the zealots can't.

Just because you cannot do it now, does not mean that you cannot do it later.

Cross that bridge when we come to it. We haven't reached it yet.

[Pandonetho]

if the zealots never do that, I think we can reasonably assume that the zealots can't.

This. I really don't get people who consistently insist on assuming otherwise with no reason to do so.

That's not how logic works. If there is a pattern that you see, you assume that the pattern continues, and you don't just randomly assume otherwise just because you want to. We've seen a pattern that Zealots have never used their psionics to combat enemies except for forming psi blades or maybe enhancing their physique. What gives you reason just to assume otherwise? We don't assume ice will sink in water just because we want to assume so. We need to see/prove that ice sometimes sinks in water (but it never does) to say it does. So logically, we don't assume ice is going to sink every time it forms.

[Codean386]

I would put my bet on a Marine (in armor) Massive strength/armor and also the infamous human will to win and not surrender+adrenaline dont underestimate humans adrenaline/willpower is the key to victory

[drakolobo]

According to the Dark Templar Saga, other than Dark Templar, protoss generally do not learn how to block mind-reading. I believe that was depicted in Shadow Hunters, with a reminder that the protoss from the Aeon of Strife (who did not have access to the Khala) regularly shielded their mind.

in fact it is not a lost skill protoss during the eon of the conflict sought to overcome the mental defenses of other protoss to steal valuable information, blocking Mind Reading is a limit of individuality (or privacy) protoss, they just share their emotions in the Khaala ,just the dark templar are the final master in regard to conceal their minds